Transcript of journalist and senior media executive Richard Sergay's interview with Nina Callaghan for the “Stories of Impact” series

Watch the video version of this interview.

RS =  Richard Sergay (interviewer)
NC =  Nina Callaghan (interviewee)
Richard Sergay also interviewed young reporters in the program. Scroll down to read transcripts with:
Chloe Johnson, Neorisha Juarius, Monique Hansen, Jabulile Thwale, Aphile Momamdia, and Thoko Ani Nqwini.

 

RS: For transcription, actually introduce yourself, name, title, and affiliation?

NC: Okay. My name is Nina Callaghan, and I’m the Associate Director of Children’s Radio Foundation.

RS: Thank you for doing this. Tell me, first of all, what is the Children’s Radio Foundation, and its affiliation with the South Africa Project.

NC: Okay. So, the Children’s Radio Foundation is an NGO, and we have our project office in Cape Town. The core of our work really is around partnering with community radio stations, community based organizations, and youth, to grow and nurture spaces of broadcast and community engagement for young people. So, we acknowledge that young people make up the biggest demographic on the continent, and in our country. But they have very few spaces where they can express themselves, where they contribute to opinion, and where they can advocate for things that they need in their lives. So, with this awareness, Children’s Radio Foundation, creates these spaces, where young people can be young reporters. And they broadcast radio shows every week that are researched, produced, and hosted by young people themselves. So, young people set the agenda from the conception, all the way through to execution on air. We support community radio stations, and young people with training to be able to do this. And it's basic journalism 101, ethics, consent, what it really means to broadcast, and put your story out into the world, how you protect yourself and others. And it’s also around training them in the topics that are really living with them and their communities. So, we focus on some topics like HIV, sexual reproductive health and rights, education, building safer communities, migration, and xenophobia. Children’s Radio Foundation is really interested in developing young people as critical thinkers, as confident communicators, not so that they can go out and study journalism, and be journalists. They could if they wanted to, but it’s really about developing confident and critical young people. Who are socially aware and who are active in their own lives, and the lives of their communities. 

RS: How many years has this project been up and running? How many young journalists have you trained? And what’s the age range of these journalists? And is it across a multi-racial spectrum that you train journalists?

NC: So, the Children's Radio Foundation has been going since 2007. And we work in six countries in Africa. Our oldest project is in Tanzania, which we started in 2010. The project in South Africa started in 2012, it’s called the Young Reporters Network, and we have, so far, trained over 500 young people, locally. And currently, there are just over 200 young people who are still active in the project. So, once young people have been in the program for two or three years, they graduate out. So, we’ve had about two cohorts graduate out of the program. It’s a good split between young, young men, and young women.

    

NC: There’s a good split between young men and young women, about 64 percent of our young reporters are young girls. And the rest, young men. And they are usually high school going age, so between the ages of 14 and 20. We’re active in every province in South Africa. So, we have nine provinces and we have multiple project sites in some provinces like the Eastern Cape, and Gauteng, and the Western Cape. So, the Young Reporters Network is a national initiative. We have nine provinces in South Africa, and we are present in each one. Some of the provinces having multiple project sites. We really serve young people in underserved communities. And so, that translates into our young reporters being black young reporters. And it so happens that these are the young people who most need a platform to communicate, to share themselves. I think other young people who are at very good schools, who are in very privileged urban areas, they have so much more pathways and access to be heard.

So, most of the young reporters, actually, all of the young reporters in Children’s Radio Foundation are black. We work in underserved communities in South Africa and they are peri-rural, and peri-urban areas, and sometimes, quite deeply rural areas. And these are the areas where young people desperately need to be heard. If young people across the racial spectrum attend a privileged school, or they live in wealthier urban areas, the pathways to being heard and access to information, to platforms to express themselves, are so much more available, than if you’re looking at a community in the Eastern Cape, which is 3, 300 kilometers away from any major urban center. 

RS: Do these young reporters broadcast from radio state, community radio stations, and what’s the listenership?

NC: Okay. So, community radio is a really potent place for the convergence of activism, awareness, community news, and information. It remains, in South Africa, a place where a community’s voice can really be distilled, hyperlocal issues in local languages. And these are the places that Children’s Radio Foundation identified as the most beneficial spaces for young people to be. One, because they are young talent. And so, at these community radio stations, we are nurturing young talent. Not only technical talent and reporting proficiency, but young people who know what’s going on. And who know how to connect with others. So, these young reporters, they broadcast weekly. They have a show that is from half an hour, to an hour long. And they speak to a listenership, sometimes, of up to 600,000. So, it could happen that a community radio station sound desk is held together with tape, but they are reaching an incredible audience, sometimes bigger than our national broadcaster. So, the reach of these young people’s stories, of the experiences of young people in the communities, are really able to reach intimate spaces, in very far flung areas. 

RS: Why radio?

NC: Radio is – radio is, it’s life. It’s, it’s, it’s intimate. It reaches into homes, into cars, into public spaces. It’s immediate, it’s alive in the moment. And people are able to interact with it. Now, with WhatsApp technology and other means of communication and messaging, your voice can be heard on air in an instant, and for free. You don’t have to call in and use up your airtime. It is, radio is local, you know, it reflects the people around. And, you know, when, when I listen to some of the young people ---

RS: Go ahead, when you listen ---

NC: When I listen to some of the young people, and ask why do you love it so much? It’s a lot of work, to put together a half an hour to an hour show, and you have school, you have homework, extra classes, chores in your family. And they say, when I’m in front of the mic, I feel alive. It’s the buzz of production. It is the thrill of not knowing what caller is calling in, and what they’re going to say. It’s about being quick on your feet. It’s about working in a team, and the real satisfaction when you’ve had a broadcast that went really well, and you know, that you’ve reached people. It’s very satisfying. 

RS: You’re a former journalist, media trained, I see your eyes light up about radio. There’s something special and different about radio than other media for you?

NC: I think so. I think it’s more honest. There’s less, there’s less setup, you know. There’s less construction. There’s a lot more spontaneous sharing, you know. And the microphone – when you’re holding a microphone, you’re speaking into a microphone, it’s almost like a, like a mini confessional. You know, it does something to your process, to your body. It makes you breathe differently, as opposed to cameras and, you know, a different eye of awareness, let’s say for video. Radio’s really intimate and asks intimate things of you. And I think it’s able to access stories a lot easier. Yeah, and I think that can be really captured on air.

RS: So, before these kids, how do they join the program? Tell me about that.

NC: Okay. We researched what were the better community radio stations out there. And when I say better, I mean people who were really invested in their communities, and who were interested in growing youth programming. So, we pitched the idea of a Young Reporters Network to station managers, and it’s a value proposition. There’s no big money in this for radio stations. What we support the project with is not enough for anyone to pay their bills, or by a long shot, to purchase airtime on radio. So, the community radio station and Children’s Radio Foundation enter into an agreement, around nurturing young talent and youth development in underserved communities. And we go into schools, community centers, youth groups, and pitch the idea of a project. And sometimes, the first thing young people understand by this pitch is, I’m going to be famous, I’m going to be a DJ, I’m going to be, you know, a local celebrity. And once they come to the second information session, they really understand that it’s not that thing, it’s really about exploring a community in terms of a system of people working together, of topics and issues coming together. And it’s also the opportunity to really grow skill. So, we choose about 15 to 20 young reporters from these information sessions. There’s no audition. We’re not into the person who is the most eloquent, who is the most confident. We’re not looking for the bright and shining stars. We’re looking for young people who are curious about themselves, and the world around them. And we are looking for young people who want to make a difference. So, these are the people who usually end up in the room, and we start off with a foundational training. Like I said, in ethics, consent, how to report. And, also some topic specific training. And it’s the community, the radio stations who nurture the technical proficiency of young people.

RS: How long does the program last for the young journalists that you’ve chosen?

NC: Young people enter the program, and they stay for up to 3 years. It's a really committed journey that they take. But like I said, young people, it’s – they become, they become hooked. They’re hooked on the buzz of production, of understanding that they’re making an impact. And they also become role models in their communities, to their peers and to adults. And they do become local celebrities, but not in the same way as the DJs are. They are super cool, because they know things, not because they are just super cool. They become young, like peer educators, you know. Their friends come to them and ask them about a show that they did, or ask for further information. They are seen as young people who are active in their own lives, which really challenges the dominant idea of who youth are. In South Africa, the dominant narrative in mainstream media is that youth are apathetic, violent, hopeless, diseased. When young people are spoken about, they are spoken about as phenomena, you know, as, as, as an extension of some of the social ills that we have in our country.

NC: When, when young people have the opportunity to represent themselves, you get a very different picture to that dominant portrayal of who young people are. They have the chance to represent themselves, to speak for themselves, and to set their own agenda. They’re not an extension of an adult agenda or having been spoken about. And this is a very, this is a very powerful emotional act, political act. To be able to represent yourself, to be able to determine how others see you on your own terms, not on somebody else’s.

RS: Listening to you, I get the sense that these young journalists inspire you.

NC: Yes, they do. Young people inspire me incredibly, and I love the work that I do.

RS: These journalist young people inspire you?

NC: Yes, young people inspire me, and they make this job so rewarding and worthwhile. I feel very privileged to be able to spend the kind of time that I do with young people in a training room, to really get to know who they are. To really understand the challenges and the triumphs that they forge in their lives. You know, in our, in our understanding of our country as a place of gross inequality, as a place where youth opportunity is, is very rare. It’s not a robust national agenda, in a very serious way. And then, to meet young people who are motivated, curious, caring, about themselves, about their communities, about their families, about their education, it is incredibly inspiring. Because to have to overcome a great sense of hopelessness, or to reach for something that is not entirely obvious, and the pathways to that thing that you’re reaching for, is also not entirely obvious, but they do it anyway. It's a human triumph really. It’s something that is incredibly brave. And young people need to be supported, so much more. They need to be listened to so much more. They have a wealth of experience and wisdom about their own lives, because they live it. And they live the consequences of adult decisions, whether it’s in the family, whether it's on a policy level. You know, young people are the people who experience that the most and we don’t give them a chance to participate in those decisions, in any meaningful kinds of way. So, so, I feel passionately about the work, about creating spaces for young people, to participate, and to share their lives. 

RS: What are the values that you’re trying to instill in these young folks?

NC: The values are, are really about being curious, questioning things. Question your environment, question what it is you think you deserve. Question injustice. The values are also around participating, being active. So, when you see who you are, and where you are, how do you place yourself in that environment? What do you do? What are your responses? And, you know, in the, in the, in the noble and ideal tradition of, of journalism, we strive to be balanced. We strive to hear many angles of a story, and this is also one of the main tenets of how we want the young people to participate in this project. Is that, even when, that grandmother calls on your show, and she’s furious because she, you’re talking about things that she doesn’t agree with, you need to let her speak. You need to give her that platform too. And so, it’s really nurturing a space of diversity, of being able to hold, and acknowledge, not just the kinds of things that we want to believe, or that we want to understand in the world. But the things that really exist, and how can we create spaces for that diversity? For, for that difference? Can we live with it gracefully? Can we hear it gracefully? How does that contribute to a richer and more nuanced conversation, because heaven knows, we need it, in the whole world. And especially in our country. Debate and dialogue often degenerates into very egotistical and fixed positions. And we need a new generation who are more inclusive. I don’t, by any stretch, say that they need to be accepting, but they need to be more inclusive. And the dialogue needs to be more diverse. 

RS: Why is that diversity, that you’ve mentioned, so eloquently of an opinion, so important to the foundation, and to South Africa?

NC: I think when we, when we attempt to listen to each other, we begin the journey of understanding the other. We begin to understand how people are constituted. It – when we really listen, we begin to dismantle our stereotypes about people, about places, about behaviors. And I think we are more likely to be compassionate. And to act from a place of care, instead of a place of fear. So, when we are more informed and when we, when the space between you and me is shorter to jump, I’m more willing to take the jump, to take the leap. And so, I think it’s really important in a country like ours where things like race and, and economic inequality, really is trauma in people’s lives. It’s not just, you know, a phenomenon, it’s a trauma, it’s a loathed experience of so many people in this country, black people in this country. And so, for us, to be able to try and bridge these divides, by listening to each other, by talking to each other, by really sharing our lives, I think a lot is possible. 

RS: One of the words you’ve used, is you’ve asked these young journalists to participate. I’m curious what you mean by that because generally in, you know, Western journalism, one is seen as an observer, and not a participant. This may be different though because it’s South Africa. So, help me understand that. 

NC: Okay. First of all, I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a great illusion to think that as media makers, one is objective. One needs to be balanced, yes. But I think the idea of objectivity is really a fallacy. We make choices all the time in our media making, and if we’re not aware of those choices, we can produce very dangerous things. And we try to make the young people aware of this. And when I talk about participation, it’s not about young people being completely agnostic, because what they’re talking about is their lives, and the issues that affect their lives, and other young people in their communities. And we are asking young people to find their position. What is their position? What is it that you are advocating for? So, it’s not, it’s not journalism that’s agnostic. It’s journalism that is trying to navigate an issue, it’s trying to find local solutions to an issue. And by participating, I’m also meaning to really, yes, acknowledge the problem, but what are the pathways to making it better? In a classical sense, it’s not, it’s not really solutions journalism, because I think solutions journalism is quite forensic in its unpacking of information, and research, and so on. But how the young people unpack their stories is through narrative storytelling. It’s about the story and the opinion of others, to be able to paint a picture of how this issue lives in the world. So, it’s very emotive and that’s also another way of participation. We’re asking, and young people are asking themselves, and their peers, and their community members, to really share. And that’s also about participation. We’re not asking for, for cold facts, or what happened? What happened and what happened to you is the question. 

RS: Let’s talk about the Ubuntu Project, funded by Templeton World Charity Foundation. What was that path?

NC: Children’s Radio Foundation was really excited to grapple with this project, with the support of the Templeton World Charity Foundation. Ubuntu is not a developmental topic, it’s not a classic developmental topic, as some of our other themes in the program are. It doesn’t have the process of exploring it is not the same, as we are talking about access to education, for instance. Ubuntu, the exploration of Ubuntu, really got the young people excited, because it was asking them to examine something that was known in some way, shape, or form, to them and to their community. And it was, it was asking for a re-examination, a re-interpretation. And yeah, the outcomes are not hard outcomes, like some of the other themes are, you know. If, if you want to understand the impact of a program, you look at a log frame, and you can see this happened. So many people attended, so many people received messages. You can say so many people attended, so many people received a message, but the process of unpacking Ubuntu was a very personal undertaking in a way that the other themes were not. It asked people to examine the, like the fiber of their lives, in a very different way. It, it, it asked them to examine the motivations, and, and the actions, as a human being, in a much bigger understanding of humanity. And that was very exciting. 

RS: Define Ubuntu for me.

NC: Ubuntu, the classic definition still resonates with me, that I am because you are. I am, because of my, how you affirm or not affirm me. How you reflect or don’t reflect me. I can only exist because I push up, and with somebody and something else. Or else I’m, I’m a random particle, which I’m not, which none of us are. And Ubuntu is about that practice of humanity. It’s about the practice of acknowledging that we are in this together, and that we don’t exist without each other. 

RS: Tell me the originality of the word, where is it from and why is it important to South Africa?

NC: Ubuntu is – Ubuntu or uMunthu, is a Nguni word, and which is, which is based, which comes from a language in Southern Africa, and it is a very wide, widely understood concept. It’s, it also lives on the rest of the continent in different words, in different understandings. 10:07:41 But the basic, the basic concept that we are interdependent, and that we need to acknowledge that mystery almost, is a, is a way that traditional societies, historically traditional societies have practiced and have managed to forge community, and to be prosperous. 10:08:16 Ubuntu is, is described as an African philosophy and an African practice. But I think that we can see its resonance in all, in all kinds of communities across the world.

RS: If I’ve heard correctly, it’s almost a philosophy way of life. 

NC: Yes. 

RS: Is that right?

NC: Yes. I think Ubuntu is like – Ubuntu is a guiding principle. It’s a guiding principle for how, it’s – well, Ubuntu is a guiding principle and I think it’s the most noble guiding principle. Because we’re not only talking about our interactions with each other as human beings, but it extends to how we interact with the earth. How we interact with this living planet. How we are part of greater systems. We are, yes, yes, it’s a practice of humanity, and it’s a guiding, noble, practice around how we maintain respect, and peace, and how we are prosperous together. You know, it, it’s, it kind of leaps concepts like capitalism, and politics. All of these systems can have Ubuntu applied to them, but Ubuntu as a, as a guiding principle and philosophy, yes, it is, it is a beacon really, and a call for us to, to live in a certain way. 

RS: So, why choose Ubuntu as a project for these young journalists that have, that seems to have less definition, harder edges around it than, for example, as you mentioned, education, or HIV, or the economy. What was it that struck you about Ubuntu as a project mission that was important for the young journalists?

NC: I think the exploration of Ubuntu really had resonance with what we are trying to do with young people, which is also building character. Which is really understanding one’s motivation in the world, which is understanding where you place yourself, in an environment, and in relation to others. So, it, it, it really was an incredible tool for young people to, to understand themselves, and their communities better. It was exciting to break apart this word that is assumed to be understood by everyone, right. So, so, so, yes there’s a, there’s a long history and practice of Ubuntu in more traditional communities, but Ubuntu as it lives now, in 2017, what does that look like? And how do people, different and diverse people, understand this concept? It’s also a word that’s now interchangeable and used in advertising, in a market sphere, you know. It's a glib word as well. And it’s also a word that is, that really was at the center of building this rainbow nation. And this idea of the rainbow nation has crumbled. In 2017, it crumbled. Because, I think we have come and young people have come to a place of understanding, that there was a great attempt at reconciliation, but there wasn’t a great attempt at justice, and redress. And, unpacking a concept like Ubuntu, in this understanding, I thought was very interesting, because we have instances of extreme violence, against each other in this country. We have instances of severe homophobia and xenophobia, incredible, incredible and angry, and justifiably so, service delivery protests for the inhumanity, the material inhumanity of people’s lives. And it was interesting to understand the practice of Ubuntu in this boiling pot of our struggles. It was, it was an attempt to come up for air really. I think, for the young people, to – yeah, to have a big exhale about themselves and about the other. I think it was really needed.

RS: I’m curious where you began the Ubuntu project, we discussed this on the phone but we don’t refer to that, where you began the Ubuntu project, and where you ended, you indicated was very different. The journey of learning about it, what it began to mean in a very different way. Talk to me about that. 

NC: The Ubuntu Project was a two-year project. And in the first year, the young people really explored what Ubuntu is, for myself, and for others. And it was a process of having intergenerational conversations, with grandmothers, and parents, and older people. It was an exploration of what my peers think Ubuntu is or isn’t. And it was, it was a very, it was very light actually, it was a very light discovery, and process of discovery. In the second year, we problematized Ubuntu a bit. And we said, we asked, is Ubuntu conditional, in these very extreme situations of our lives in South Africa? In the face of extreme inequality, in the face of racism, how do we, how do we practice Ubuntu? Is it – is Ubuntu this plaster that we put over everything in an, in an attempt to, to just live together, you know. Does Ubuntu kill or enhance a revolutionary idea and spirit? And young people really grappled with some of these issues because they’re very real in their lives. It also – Ubuntu didn’t only become about how I interacted with the other, but it also became about self-care, which I thought was really interesting. I had never really understood the concept of Ubuntu relating to my love, and my, my love of self. And my, my, and my care of self. You know, Ubuntu can and, and, and was often understood, as this very self-sacrificing practice. And young people understood in the, in the, in the time that we are in, that a self, self-sacrificing practice is damaging. It’s damaging to myself as a young person, asking for what I deserve. Yeah, and that, that interpretation, and that discovery of Ubuntu was a very exciting one. 

RS: What did Ubuntu teach you about the promises of a new South Africa?

NC: Oh gosh, now you’ve asked me that question. I think the promises of a new South Africa were very much built on the idea that we can overcome. That we, that we have overcome so much. And that, if we work together, we can achieve greater social and material wealth for all people. That we can provide access and opportunity for all people. And Ubuntu was very central to this idea of that rainbow nation, but I think we haven’t really grappled with a sense of justice in our country. And this, I think, is really that inability to address that, I think is – we’re now seeing the symptoms, and the consequences of that. We’re seeing a rising student movement around free education. We’re seeing very violent service delivery protests. We’re seeing an increased frustration, justified frustration, of people, because of the conditions of their lives. And, and the lack of access to opportunities and to wealth. And I think, as a nation, we’re coming to the awareness that reconciliation is just one part of the story. I’m not sure how we’re going to address the other part of the story, which is justice. For me, that’s what I, that’s what I call it, and how I understand it. And I think a lot of the younger people understand it too. I think it’s very uncomfortable for people who have come through a tradition of non-sectarianism, non-racialism, to be suddenly catapulted into very polarized discussions. And that’s the tone of discussions these days in our country. It’s very much an idea of you and me, and us, and them, and, and it’s very disempowering for a lot of people and it’s very, very scary for some people. But I think, I think it’s another moment in our lives, in our becoming, in our becoming this country that we want to be, in trying to fulfill the kind of promises that were made. And I think, one – yeah. 

RS: Most of these young journalists, all of these young journalists have grown up in a, what’s known as a Post- Apartheid South Africa. The South Africa you’re describing sounds very much as divisive, in many ways, as the one that preceded it. Am I wrong?

NC: The South Africa that we live in now is divisive, but it’s always been divisive, because people who did not have access to running water in their homes, many of them still don’t have access to running water in their homes. Many people still have to leave their home to go to the toilet. They have to risk their lives, if they want to go to the toilet. So, yes, material conditions for many people have not changed. The divisions that existed in apartheid that made you different, that made you different from me, still exist. And you’re asking people to come to the table of nationhood, with a generosity that is actually, it’s not, it’s not humanly possible to maintain that generosity all of the time. Without fighting for, or advocating strongly for lives to be improved. I mean, you know, access to quality healthcare, or just healthcare, a clinic that is serviced, that has stocked medications, that have trained healthcare workers, who are able to refer you on to, you know, further examinations. It’s very rare, it’s very, very rare, to have access to schools, good schools where you have teachers for all of your subjects. That’s not too much to ask, that’s a basic right. These are rights we are talking about, they’re not privileges. And so, the rights of people are still being undermined daily. And so, yes, the division, the divisions that separated many people then, still exist today. 

RS: One of the remarkable things I found so covering the old South Africa through the transition, which goes to the issue of Ubuntu is, and Archbishop Tutu spoke many times about this, is the sense of resilience, and forgiveness, by South Africans, about what happened, and what the future may hold? Is that sense of forgiveness and resilience still evident in your mind? Sounds like a lot of frustration.

NC: Really, honestly, and this is something that the Archbishop has said himself, we’re surprised this country is not on fire every day. It’s a miracle, it truly is. So, people’s sense of resilience and forgiveness is something that is enacted every day. I don’t think it is a grand gesture. It is just the act of getting up and going about your business, and being nice to people. And practicing Ubuntu despite all of the signifiers in your life, that tell you, you are less than. So, absolutely, that sense of resilience and forgiveness, lives as a grace in this country, every day. 

RS: Survival.

NC: Not just survival, sanity, yes. You know, to – to maintain your sense of value, and meaning, and, and belonging, you know, people get on with it, and they are resilient, and they find ways, and young people find ways. They find ways, but it does not mean that all of the other extreme challenges and traumas in their lives are not also living alongside that. 

RS: What surprised you most, along this journey to Ubuntu project?

NC: I think maybe young people came to a new, and refreshed understanding of Ubuntu, in that it included themselves, and that it wasn’t this self-sacrificial practice. I think what they were also able to see was the application of Ubuntu in so many areas of their lives. So, they were looking at, does Ubuntu live in my love relationship with my boyfriend? Is he showing me Ubuntu through the way that he treats me? Is there respect living here? Is there good communication living here? They found applications of Ubuntu in the health clinic. Is Ubuntu being practiced here, in the ways that we relate to each other as a young client, and as a healthcare worker? That I found really exciting for young people to take their learning, that, that could have been quite abstract. And to really locate it in a very real place. 

RS: Are there other intangibles found in your mind, through the project of Ubuntu? Things you didn’t expect?

NC: I think, I think, young people recognized, recognized wisdom in, in the elders, in ways that they had been probably frustrated with, or resentful of. I think they, they looked at their communities, however dire their situations were, or the situations of the communities were, there was, there was an acknowledgment that they are also assets. That there is also value here, that they are valuable people, that they are valuable stories, that they are valuable strategies to moving forward. Yeah, and it was lovely, it was lovely for – to hear young people explore issues that were outside of the very, sometimes impersonal boundaries of what makes a topic, you know. Ubuntu was able to live and breathe in, in so many aspects of life. 

RS: Is there a story that you remember from the project that you’ll always remember? I’m sure there are many, but I’m curious if there was something that stood out?

NC: There was – we held an event at the end of the first year of the Ubuntu Project. We brought about 50 young people from around the country together, to come to Cape Town, to celebrate the work that they have done. To reflect on their understanding. And we held a youth radio awards, where we celebrated a lot of the stories and, and acknowledged young people’s efforts in putting this topic out into the world. And we also had a lab, it was called the Ubuntu Lab, and it was one day, where we came together at the District Six Museum, which is a beautiful space to hold memories, and, and, and a sense of change, and time. And the young people shared what they had learned, and there was one young reporter who shared a story about homophobia, in a way that had the room silent. You could hear a pin drop, and people were holding their breath as this young reporter was speaking. And she was talking about how selective we are in our practice of Ubuntu. And that, that’s not truly Ubuntu, because when something offends our moral understanding, we can very quickly discard this noble idea. And for her, the appeal was to have Ubuntu truly extend in its breadth and depth, to include everyone. And that’s a moment that will really stand out for me, because I think it really crystallized the idea and the concept of Ubuntu. And it also brought home a topic that lives uncomfortably sometimes, with us. So, I’ll always remember that. 

RS: You said that to me that exploring a topic like Ubuntu for its riches, richness, not necessarily for the outcome, was important to the project. Tell me why. 

NC: I think you, you, one can’t, you know, one can say that through the Ubuntu Project, and over two years, young people were energized about becoming active citizens. They looked at the accountability and leadership as young people, and these are more of the outcomes that we can talk about. But I think the thing that we can’t really talk about is how people’s hearts opened, you can’t, you can’t measure that. And I think that's something that happened. 

NC: I think the other richness, the richness that came from exploring Ubuntu was also rediscovering or discovering the wonder, the wonder that lives in the world and, and the mystery of this, this idea that we’re connected, even in the mess of the world, we’re connected. And, and, and we depend on each other. And that’s a, that’s a wondrous and awe-inspiring idea to nurture. So, for me that was the, that was the richness that was very special about the Ubuntu Project. There was no other, kind of, social idea that really excavated these kinds of discoveries. 

RS: Did you see a transformation in the journalists from when they began to when they finished?

NC: I think young people are, you know, they make incredible discoveries about, about so many things. I wouldn’t necessarily just put it down to the exploration of Ubuntu. But I think they might be something lasting in the, in the things that we can’t measure, that lives with young people still. I think it’s that, that idea of the application of Ubuntu, that is like an awareness, you know. So, once you switch it on, you can’t switch it off. And I think that is something that still lives with these young people. 

RS: How would you define progress? Progress for South Africa? Progress?
    
NC: Progress for South Africa, I think the indicators are on lots of levels. I think leadership in this country is a real problem. I think the lack of leadership and the poor accountability is a practice and an energy that is toxic to our nation, and it’s toxic to young people. And it’s toxic to institutions. And we very, we, we are very naïve if we think that, that doesn’t influence the fabric of our society. So, I think, we need to be very vigilant if we want to move about how we lead in our lives, for ourselves, for our families, for our communities. How do we pitch up as people? I think being vigilant about personal practice is one way. I think progress is also about keeping on advocating for the things that are important. To keep on demanding justice. I think progress is also about making sure that you’re also putting your energy and your effort into creating the changes. Nobody is going to bring it to you, that’s very evident, that’s very clear. While there are bigger institutional processes that must turn, there is also – it’s incumbent upon us who are participants in our families, in our lives, that we, that we make an effort, you know. That we go to the school meetings, that we pick up the trash in our roads, that we, that we listen to our friends. Yeah, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the small acts that say I care about my life. I care about those around me. Yeah, so I think it’s a, it’s a, it’s a hyper personal kind of vigilance and practice, and also it is always challenging the institutions that make the decisions, that govern a lot of the consequences of how things live in our life. 

RS: One of the issues, the last couple of questions, one of the issues you raised early on, was that the power of these projects, and particularly a project like Ubuntu, was found in it being local, for the community.
    
NC: Okay. There are a few ideas of -- you know, in development, and aid, and other, other kinds of, kind of – the mechanics of projects, there’s now an understanding that there’s not a message from outside that’s necessarily going to speak to and activate the people who are the intended recipients. So, it means that nobody else can really tell a community what the problems are, and how they should solve them. So, the only way that any authentic kind of dialogue, any meaningful engagement is going to happen is when it happens from within that community, when the voices that are heard and reflected, are the voices of that community. And so, I think, you know, young people exploring a concept like Ubuntu, they did it in a way that was very real, and, and it was loved, and that was all around them. And while they were, while they were great resonances between places across the country, and across project sites, it was examined in a very hyper, hyperlocal way. And I think this is an empowering act because people participate in the dialogue, and they try to find solutions together, to what is real, to what’s happening. There's a radio tool that we, that we use, that the young people use in their broadcasts, and it’s called a Public Service Announcement. And the way that we teach it, is that, you state, you, you introduce what the problem is. You give an extended example of how the problem lives. You give a problematic scenario, and then you provide some kind of suggestion or action. And we really, at that step, we really challenge the young people, you know, about what is your message? Are you telling people, you know, we need to save the planet? Or are you telling people to take a one bucket shower? What are the things that people can do? What are the things that people can enact? Where they can feel like they are agents of change. And it’s about that very hyper locality, it’s about what is in my power to do, and to effect. And I think this is, this is, this is really important to ignite that energy of, of, of being active, you know, of, of, of making some kind of change. 

RS: On balance, specifically, after the Ubuntu Project, you come away optimistic, pessimistic? Where are you?

NC: I’m optimistic because I work with young people. And because young people are innovative, and they’re curious, and they’re thinking of new ways of doing things. And this is what gives me hope. I’m not looking at the signifiers of hope from institutions, and politics, and policies. I’m, I’m, I’m enthused and renewed by the ideas of young people. And through this Ubuntu Project, and through the other projects that they do, there was a great sense of innovation and discovery. And that was very hopeful. It was, it was beyond, kind of the loop of my own thoughts. And I was really energized by how young people were engaging.

RS: We could go on for hours, but I think that's good!

---

Interviews with the young reporters

RS = Richard Sergay (interviewer)

SA COSAT Ubuntu Youth Reporters:
JT = Jabulile Thwale (interviewee)
AM = Aphile Momamdia (interviewee)
TAN = Thoko Ani Nqwini (interviewee)

RS: Great, thank you for doing this.  Let's just introduce ourselves.  So, introduce yourself and tell me your age.  And talk to me.

JT: Okay, my name is Jabulile Thwale.  I live in [unintelligible], I’m doing grade 12.  I'm turning 18 next week, so basically I'm 18 as well.

AM: My name is Aphile Momamdia and I live in Kalija.  I’m also doing grade at COSAT.  I’m 18.  

TAN: I’m Thoko Ani Nqwini, I also live in Kalija, doing grade 12 at COSAT.  I’m 18 years. 

RS: So let's start with you.  I'm going to ask you same questions and we're going to just go down the line.  Tell me a little bit about yourself and why you were interested in joining the Children's Radio Foundation's project on Ubuntu.  

JT: Well I've always been an outspoken person, basically.  But I was recruited into Sky F [ph] by one of my teachers because I was doing media at school.  Like we're doing how to take photographs and stuff.  And then luckily for me he has ascribed my name into the Sky F crew, and I joined ATM [ph], and while I was there like, I learned how to like, how to speak to people, how to interact with different people from different backgrounds and religions, and how to…  How to like, be able to ask questions to people, being able to know more and learn more about the societies we live in.  [unintelligible] growing up in Kalija is like it's a war zone there, with crime, drugs, thugs, light and gangsterism is like it’s a huge thing that side.  So, like, I learned to explore like, life isn't like, as terrible as it seems in Kalija.  But there is a good side in Kalija. And like, there are people who are willing to do things to help out and improve Kalija. Yeah.  And I also do swimming. 

RS: You do swimming?  Excellent.  So, tell me how you got involved in the project and why.

JT: I feel like I got involved in the project because I've always been someone who listens to another person's opinion, and I don't force my opinion on someone.  I always get to the listening side, and I'm a good listener.  That's for why.  And I'm usually debating most of the time, because I also want to be heard.  That's the main reason why I wanted to join [unintelligible] because it provided a platform to be heard.  I wanted to be heard. And I saw that Ubuntu is, I don't know, I'll just say it's shredding away bit by bit.  So, I want to bring Ubuntu back.  That's the reason why.

RS: [inaudible] And for you, tell me how you got involved and why.

TAN: Initially how I got involved back because of Curious City I saw an opportunity, then I joined CRF.  But here I learned to understand other people, and not just… To respect other people's opinion, not to just listen to myself because they are other people's opinions. 

RS: How important was it to learn how to ask questions?

AM: I'd say it's very important how to ask, because the way you ask a question can get someone talking.  If you just ask the question, you can ask the question, like, asking the wrong way, and you get a yes or no answer.  And the person will just say yes.  Then you'll be stuck and you'll say explained, but you didn't say the person was explaining the way you asked the question.  So, as a journalist, as a young journalist, [unintelligible] someone talking. The longer the better.  That's what I taught myself.  And the way that you ask questions is very, very important, because you can get the opinion by just asking the question, even though the person didn't feel like talking, but the way you ask the question will get them snappy [ph]. 

RS: Same question. How important is it to learn how to ask questions?

TAN: It's important because the person can just give you one word answer.  You should also tell the person that they should elaborate on their answer and ask many whys and how.  They should tell them to give you a long answer, because many people just don't understand the question.  They say yes or no.

JT: For me, asking a question, you should ask the question at which you know like, you should get an answer which you didn't expect.  Like it shouldn't be like, ask me a question I didn't know, okay, I'm going to get this answer.  So, it's very like, let the person think on their own feet and give you an answer which you can work on.

RS: So the Ubuntu project…  [ shot setup ] So, tell me what Ubuntu means for each of you and whether it changed over the course of the two-year period that you did your reporting.

JT: For me, Ubuntu is like, it's a spirit of giving, of caring, and sharing with people.  But ever since I've been on the project, I've seen that people see Ubuntu differently.  Like people are using money to get Ubuntu.  People are like, creating projects and saying like, they're doing it for the spirit of Ubuntu [unintelligible].  There also actually doing projects for them, for their own gainage of getting exposure to different people from different walks of life. \Actually in our community, the spirit of Ubuntu has faded away actually, to be honest.  Because like, in the olden days Ubuntu meant that your child is my child, but these days it's like, people are working against each other for their own benefit.

RS: What does Ubuntu mean and did it change?

AM: Well, the meaning of Ubuntu is to give without expecting.  That's the meaning that I had walking into the project.  But it changed over the course of the two years.  Ubuntu is not only giving, but it's also about appreciation of the other person, and compassion and oh, it's not about material things.  I mean, a smile to the next person when you're walking down the street can change that person's day.  That is sort of Ubuntu. But then people do not understand Ubuntu.  And over the course of the two years I've tried to make people understand Ubuntu.  Ubuntu is not about giving something you don't have, or sacrificing for the other person.  It's not about that.  It's about you giving to the next person.  You don't have to make sacrifices for Ubuntu.  And that changed me, and the program changed me for the past two years.  Yeah.

TAN: I also thought Ubuntu is about giving someone something that they don't have.  It's about helping, or it's about just listening to them.  But then the past few years I learned that Ubuntu is about showing kindness to someone, greeting someone just out of the blue, and then smiling to them, can also show Ubuntu.  It's not really about giving, but because you can make another person smile, it's showing Ubuntu.

RS: Is Ubuntu a way of life?  Is it a philosophy of life?  Is it the way you live?  What do you think?

TAN: I think it's a way of living.  It just comes out.  It's not something that is made, but it's something that is there naturally.  We have to show it.  So, we have to show it, but everyone is supposed to have Ubuntu.  But because we are people and we have different personalities, people don't really show Ubuntu.  They just deny it, from showing it.  But it's something that has always been there.

AM: I think Ubuntu should be a way of life.  It's something that you have to grow up with.  From a young age you have to have Ubuntu.  And I think Ubuntu is a practice.  It's not really something that, like, a religion or anything like that.  No.  Ubuntu is something that has to be practiced in all religions and cultures.  And seeing that the word Ubuntu comes from Xhosa, other people think, just because I'm not Xhosa, I don't have to show Ubuntu.Ubuntu is for Xhosa people or the black tribe, but it's not like that.  Everyone should practice Ubuntu.

JT: The life we live, like, Ubuntu has been turned into a philosophy of life.  It's not something that people use every day.  It's like, people are forcing it into their lives while they are not actually believing in it, or like, living the fast life these days.  It's not something we believe in anymore.  It doesn't exist anymore.

RS: It doesn't?
 
JT: It doesn't in the life we live in.  Someone's always thinking of themselves.  The people are selfish these days.  They are not being selfless to the other people.  So, yeah… It doesn't exist.

RS: What do you attribute that to?  You call [unintelligible] wartorn.  I mean is that part of what's going on in the loss of Ubuntu?  

JT: Yes, it is, but like, people-okay, boys actually, are killing each other.  [unintelligible] turn into different groups.  We're all black people, but people have turned against one another.  The different type, like, groups, they call them like, [unintelligible] doing stuff like that, they've turned themselves into groups, and they fight with one another and kill one another.  So, like, we bury a lot of people.  And there is no spirit of Ubuntu.

RS:  When you did your radio… Well let's back up before I ask that question.  Tell me what it was like, being a radio reporter.  Was it fun, interesting?  You're all smiling.  What was it like taking a microphone and going up and talking to friends and community members?  Go ahead.

TAN: It was fun.  It was very exciting, because for me, I met a lot of people.  And like, some people just give us like, funny answers, as though you didn't expect.  So, it's all about being adventurous and asking a lot of questions.  But at the same time it is hard, because people didn't want to be interviewed, especially around Kalija.  But it is fun.

JT: I think it's the best part of the program, because you get to meet new people, if in personalities, different opinions.  You get to learn something new every day when you do that.  But the nerves that you get when you start holding that recorder, you are shaking and you're scared, and the sound must be perfect.  If a car is passing, then you have to stop totally, because it'll disturb the sound.  But then it's just the best part of radio, the fact that you get to meet new people and you interview a different person every day. 11:47:58 You're asking the same question but you're getting so many different answers.

RS:  And for you, what was it like being a radio reporter [inaudible] [ shot setup ] 

JT: Okay, well okay, I got a lot of exposure.  I learned different things.

RS:  Like?

JT: Oh God, there's so many.  We've worked with UNICEF.  We've been like, to the science [unintelligible] 

AM: [inaudible] 

JT: Yeah [inaudible] something like that.  We go to meet scientists, doctors, journalists.  Like the USA secretary, we've met him.  And we've-

AM: [unintelligible] 

JT: Yeah, Mr. Mandela’s wife, we’ve met her.  [unintelligible] was running the western Cape [ph], we’ve met her. Yeah, we've met authors, artists, like, [unintelligible], wow, wow.  It was a good life [overlap].  And we’re like, we just like, make new friends everywhere.  And we've found people who we can work it, and someone you can call in the next life and say like, I'm in trouble, can you help me out?  Or I'm dealing with this situation, is there a way, can you give me advice on how to sort this out?  Yeah.

RS:  I'm curious what the project taught you as young people.  What did you learn, both through your journalism, but also personally?  [unintelligible] 

JT: Okay, what I've learned is to expect the unexpected every time.  Like you cannot plan something, say like, life is going to be like this.  There will always be surprises along the way.  Same as with like, asking a person questions.  You shouldn't be expecting a certain answer.  Just know that people have got different opinions, like, different views of life.  So, you shouldn't be thinking for them.  Let them explore their own mind and give you answers which are different from what you expected.

AM: Well, what I learned was we might be different, but in a sort of way we are the same, because there was an Ubuntu lab held I think the last year or the year before last.  It taught me a lot because a lot of different people were in the same room, but we didn't seem different.  We didn't group ourselves.  We just communicated and we talked and we gave speeches.  And people were giving talks and we were all related to the same matter.  We were the same.  And it was so hard saying goodbye, because you know that you might never meet this person, and yet you [unintelligible] out and you got to and you connected with that person.  It just taught me a lot.  You must be open-minded.  That's the thing.  You must be open-minded.

TAN:I learned how to interact with people.  It's just like he said, in the Ubuntu lab with different people from different communities, and then we were grouped and then in my group I didn't have any of my friends.  I was alone, like, I had other people, but I didn't know them.  But then we all had ideas, different ideas, and then you combined those ideas to create a powerful idea. And it worked, about Ubuntu, it was awesome.  [ shot setup ] 

RS:  I'm curious what the Ubuntu project taught you about your character, about values.  Did it change over the course?  I mean obviously you're growing up, you're young and seeing the world, but did it impact your values or what you believed in or help you think about things that you didn't think about before?

AM: Well I would say it changed me, because I got to mix with people from different religion, different cultures, different communities, and you know, it taught me that giving is not a color thing, it's not a skin color thing, it's not a religious thing.  Just because you are Christian, you can't give to someone else… It's not about that.  And the division, back in the apartheid, causes all these kind of problems. Because I think way before people had Ubuntu, because Ubuntu is not a thing that comes now.  It's a thing of the past.  So, people gave to each other, but because of the segregation and the separation, the feelings are still there for the oppressed.  Even though the oppressors aren't depressing anymore, but the feelings are still there.  And I'd like to say that it taught me it's not a color thing and skin color doesn't matter.  It's only skin color.  Who you are inside is all that matters.

RS:  Values?  What did he teach you?

JT: Well, for me it didn't change anything, because I've always been like this, because like, with the kind of feeling I've grown with, I've always been exposed to different people from different backgrounds, or like, for example, my godparents are white, both of them.  They're my mother's best friends.  And like, I've always lived in a life full of diversity.  So, like, it was cool to plan with different people, but I'm used to that kind of life.

TAN: It changed me, because now I have different friends from different races, because back then I didn't care about other cultures or other people.  I only cared about people who are close to me.  Now I have friends who speak different languages, like, Afrikaans, [unintelligible] Vena, so, I’m very into [unintelligible] with other people from different tribes.  I have learned a lot from them.  That's how it changed me, the Ubuntu lab.

RS:  So you told me you were nervous when you go up and interview folks, but you obviously got over your nervousness.  What were some of the other challenges, some of the hard things that you had to overcome to be a good radio reporter?  What were some of the hard things?  And I'm going to ask you what are some of the easy things.

AM: Well, what's the most challenging thing is having to… You know, approaching someone different is not something you do every day.  And the hardest thing is, it's not easy just going to a person and asking for their opinion on something.  And especially if the topic is about marriage or sex or something that they are not comfortable with.  That's the hardest thing.  And the other hard thing is deciding on a topic for a show. 11:55:59 I mean nothing, it just drains us because we debate all the time.  I think we can take up about an hour just deciding on the show, and after the show comes the angle, comes the show clock [ph], comes everything.  So, the hardest part is, I think between those two, the hardest part is just deciding on the show, because…

JT: Okay, finding the perfect angle for a topic is one of the hardest things, but like, obviously some of the topics which we talk about, they have been done before.  But the way you approach the topic is what makes you different from the other journalists and reporters out there.  So, like, finding the perfect angle has always been hard, and fighting with the members, different angles, different questions, is one thing that drains me a lot.

RS:  For you?  [inaudible] is hard? 

TAN: Yeah, so, but what was hard is okay… Designing on the show, and the topic is hard.  But when it comes to culture, we didn't have shows revolving around culture because we have different beliefs.  And none of us wanted to debate about our cultures, because we would say bad things about other people's cultures.  So, that was the hardest thing.  So, therefore we didn't do any shows revolving around culture.

RS: What did you learn as a radio journalist about teamwork?  Was it important?

JT: You should always compromise sometimes.

RS:  Say again?

JT: You must compromise with other people sometimes.  Is one of the things we learned.

RS:  Compromise?

AM: Teamwork, okay.  I learned that working as a unit is important, because if we tackle it together it's easier than me tackling it by myself.  And teamwork comes with helping the other person, and we help each other a lot, like, in the sense that for covering roles, they say talk with [unintelligible] and what she’s supposed to do.  So, I'll cover for her, and everything will be fine.  It's just working as a unit that matters the most, and teamwork is very, very essential.

TAN:
It's very important, because like, I would have an idea, but then my idea would not be complete, like, I wouldn't have the full idea, but someone from the team can help me to create a better idea.  So, that's how it is important.
RS:  
So I want you to think back, what are the people you interviewed about Ubuntu?  And tell me a story.  What struck you, like, over the two-year period, was there some just amazing story or interview that you did around Ubuntu?  And tell me the story.

JT: Well, I do have a story.  I think-do you remember the Ubuntu lab last year, I think?  There was this lady who is deaf and almost blind also.  She had TB.  But she needed money to do her surgeries and stuff.  Luckily for her, people from different walks of life donated money to her using her Facebook account and her Instagram account.  They just gave her money.  We are asking why.  And she managed to get her something installed in her ear for her hearing.  What's the name of that thing?  I forgot the surgery, what they call it, but she was given money, it cost more than 100,000 Rand.  But people gave her money, she managed to do all of her surgeries, and now she's fine.

RS:  And what did they teach you about Ubuntu?

JT: It tells me that, no matter what like, happens in life, [unintelligible] but when like, you’re in a deep situation and you really need help, people will help you out.  They'll make sure that you get the best out of life.  If you are in a deep struggle.

AM: Well I think I can remember a story, but it's not about Ubuntu exactly, but it was about a show of Ubuntu.  So, there's this lady, she's a lesbian lady.  [ shot setup ] 

AM: So there's this lady, and she's a lesbian, so, she's homosexual.  I don't know, they got stereotyped where they live in their community.  They used to get beaten sometimes, and sometimes other guys, maybe let's say the [unintelligible] guy says, hey, you’re finishing out , girls, and all that, with you being homosexual.  You're supposed to date a guy and not be homosexual.  Stuff like that. See, now that hurts as a person.  She even cried.  It was emotional.  She even cried on stage.  But then what that taught me was one day she stood up for herself, and they got as a unit, with other homosexuals, they got is a unit and they addressed the issue.  And what that taught me was, they didn't know each other at first, but they had a goal.  And Ubuntu is about helping.  The other homosexuals weren't shy because they didn't get stereotyped in where they live. They helped the other out.  And now the problem is addressed and everything is all fine.

TAN: The other story I had is I was [inaudible] by a girl.  She lived in a very… [ shot setup ] 

TAN:I don't know like, the class area , but then there was a lot of things, there is like, ghettos, dangerous, like, addicts.  And it's sort of a messed up area.  And then the police, they didn't do anything, because police are afraid of gangsters and stuff.  So, the police didn't do anything.  And then the area was very dangerous for children.And then nothing was done, but then an idea came up from the community of the people in their community, they thought of an idea to like, walk around helping those addicts.  Because the gangsterism is mostly caused by drug addicts, because I don't know how, but then they have the drug addict and sent them to rehab.  And then the gangsters, the fights, like, the level of the fights dropped. But then the area was better because of people's help.  

RS:  And how does that reflect on Ubuntu?

TAN: It showed Ubuntu, that people [unintelligible] they work together, they can solve any problem.

RS:  Any other stories come to mind?

JT: Well there is a [unintelligible] which happened last week.  Well, actually I managed to get a dress, shoes, and everything for a girl's [unintelligible].  She didn't have anything. Like she comes from a very poor background, like, her family, she lives with her mother only.  Like they are very poor.  But she managed to go to a magic dance, because like, people donated stuff for her to go to a magic dance.  And she was very happy on that night.  And it was very special for her and she was happy.

RS:  And that reflects Ubuntu [unintelligible]?

JT: Like, people, like, it's very good when you work together, and to bring joy to someone else's life.  It doesn't adjust, because you won't be able to pay back the person, you shouldn't help out.  You should help out for your own goodness of your own heart.

RS:  Any other stories?  You don't have to, I'm just curious. One of the big themes, at least when I covered South Africa years ago, and I think it still proves pretty much true, was this sense of forgiveness.  I'm sure you read the history of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission after the Archbishop Tutu headed up… But I'm curious, the connection between Ubuntu and forgiveness for past sins, whether they be political sins or community sins or social sins or a drug addict's sins.  Does that word, forgiveness, or resilience, still play a part in the community?  I'm curious.  No?

TAN: Forgiveness doesn't play a part in our communities.  Because like, the crime rate is too high, and then people in our communities cannot forgive.  It's too painful to forgive.  For example, a girl was raped in my community, and then her mother was very furious.  And then the rapist was kept in jail for like, six months.  And then when the person, he came back to our community, people wanted to ban him, because he raped.  And then in jail, he didn't stay like, a long period of time. 12:06:18 And then people wanted to ban him because the police didn't help much.  [ shot setup ] 

RS: So back to forgiveness, any thoughts on your end?

JT: Well, forgiveness, okay, fine, you can forgive a person, but it doesn't mean you'll forget the stuff they did.  But like, people hold lots of grudges.  Like in the past few weeks, a grandma lives with her granddaughter [unintelligible].  So, what happens was like, the granddaughter was being gang raped inside another house, and like, a damp house where like, no one lives.  So, the grandmother picked a knife, went there, and she killed the guys who were gang raping her granddaughter, even the one survived. She was arrested for one day, and then she was released after they heard the story and like, what was happening. And it's not the first time like, these guys have been doing this. They've been raping lots of girls before.  But she was angry and she was beaten, but it was like, she just had enough of them always asking forgiveness after doing something.  So, she decided to end their lives. 12:12:34 So, people, they never forget, but they can forgive you for that minute.  But that doesn't mean they forgotten what you have done.

RS:  
Tell me what you think are some of the biggest challenges South Africa faces, whether it's politics or economics or… Okay, go ahead.

JT: Yeah, corruption's a big thing.  Corruption, political feuds, hunger, like, overpopulation, and poverty is one of the biggest things in South Africa.  Even corruption within the parliament.

AM:Well I think that corruption obviously takes priority, and I think the gap between the rich and the poor is too big.  It's just that there are some people who depend on, I don't know, piece or part-time jobs.  And sometimes they can't even-let's say you get a job and it pays 150 per day.  And this job you're doing is not guaranteed.  It's not a job that you'll get today and you'll get tomorrow and… And these people have families to sustain, and they have people to support. So, a whole family depends on that 150 per day, and if that person comes home without, let's say he leaves the whole day or she leaves the whole day, and then when she comes back, she didn't get a job.  So, there is no money for food or anything.  So, they'll go to sleep on an empty stomach that day.  And you get some people who throw away food, who don't even give food, who don't even come to these communities to give away, for food giveaways. They just have money to blow on cars and other stuff that don't even matter in their lives.  And yeah, it's corruption, that, and I think education.  Education… The government funds so much.  I think most of the budget goes to education, but people are still here uneducated.  Teenage pregnancy, the rate of teenage pregnancy is way up.  It's sky size.  And I think the mortality rate is… Every week there is a funeral where I live.  So, people are dying, and healthcare and food security, it’s just-[unintelligible] that is just a mess at the moment.

TAN: I think the biggest problem is poverty and the unemployment. [ shot setup ] 
The biggest problem is poverty and unemployment.  People do like, anything to get food.  We even kill each other because of food.  We do anything to [unintelligible], even compromise our values, just to get something to eat.  It's one of the biggest things.  People, like, kids don't even go to school because they are afraid the other kids will laugh at them if they don't have shoes.  I think poverty is the main cause of all of the problems in South Africa.

RS:  I'm curious, from the stories your parents told you, because they grew up under apartheid, to where you are as teenagers today, going into university soon, is South Africa better off, worse off, the same?  Where do you think in terms of the arc of history that, you know, what your parents told you what it was like, and what you are living through now, better, worse, same?  What do you think?

JT: I think it's the same, because back then light teenagers were fighting for education for them, but even to this day we still have strikes for [unintelligible] education for us, but if they increased the amount of money to get that education, it's very expensive.  And coming from poor like, backgrounds, it's hard for us to pay for those huge amounts of like, money for getting that education.  They’ve provided us education, but they're making it hard for us to reach that education.  So, it's still the same.  There's not much difference.

AM: I've not heard much-sorry.  I've never heard much stories. They didn't tell me anything that I can compared to the kind of life that I live now.  And I think my parents just moved around a lot, they just moved around a lot.  And that's the only thing that they can tell me.  And now I live in a stable house.  So, they worked hard and my parents worked hard before them. So, it's just a series of working hard.  And I just can't say it's the same, because you have to work hard to be successful, and nothing comes easy.  Even in the states, even though people, like, the gap between the rich and the poor is a bit less than this, than ours, and I can say that people work hard everywhere.  So, you work hard to get what you want.

TAN: I think it's worse now, because now, if you suffer, you suffer alone.  You don't suffer with anyone.  Because back then people used it to help each other.  Even if you didn't have food in your home, you can go next door and then you can get food.  There is no Ubuntu now.  People, if you need in your house, you don't care about what other kids are eating next door.  So, it's worse now.  And even back then, if you go to school, you would share your lunchbox with maybe a friend or someone else, even your classmate. 12:18:31 But now you eat alone, you do everything like, on your own.  No one is going to help you if you don't have anything.

RS:  Did the participating in the Ubuntu project give you a better sense of what was going on in the community, politics… I mean, didn't open your eyes in a way that, had you not participated, do you think you'd be as attuned to these sorts of problems that you're talking about?

AM: Well I'd say that it was an eye-opening experience, but these things always happened in the communities.  People didn't share, they didn't want to help each other, but you didn't see it in the sense that we see it now.  We linked it with Ubuntu just because we are part of the Ubuntu program.  So, we see that there is no Ubuntu, yeah, and all that thing.  So, we are linking the things that we saw with Ubuntu. Otherwise, it's always been a thing.  I think I grew up like that.  We had neighbors who weren't as privileged as us.  But then sometimes my mom would help them.  Sometimes my mom would get annoyed that, okay, they're coming to our house asking for food.  Like and it's something that happens.  But now I see that oh, it wasn't an act of Ubuntu, giving food.  And sometimes it was an act of selfishness, not wanting to give the food.  So, yeah...

JT: Well for me, like, I wasn't always like, exposed to people being rude, people not giving to one another.  It was just me living my own life and them living their own life.  But now after I've been with the project, I've always think like, I should be giving, helping out, even though I'm not super-rich, but there is a way which I can help out.  I don't have to give out money to help people.  I can just give my service to them, or be able to help them out or helping them to teach them to help themselves out.  Because sometimes you don't have to give handouts.  You just have to teach people to help themselves out.

TAN: Even now I actually think showing Ubuntu is not about showing Ubuntu. It's about getting your own blessing, because at home I was taught that if you give someone something, you are actually going to get blessed.  So, I don't practice Ubuntu as in like, oh, I'm practicing Ubuntu.  I'm doing it for myself.  If I can make another person smile, I'm going to receive a blessing.  So, to me it's not about showing Ubuntu.  It's something that I do every day.

RS:  One of the things Nina said to me about the project is that it gave each of you a sense of confidence, a sense of your own voice.  You agree with that?

JT: I do feel like, I've always been like… I was outspoken but very shy.  So, like, it wasn't always easy for me to speak to people which I don't know.  But ever since like, I joined a crew, I am overconfident, I know I can speak my mind and no one can say anything about it.  If you have your own opinion, then good, but I will stick to my own opinions.  I can even speak out against some teachers sometimes. You can always like, have your own opinions about the world.  You do not always have to listen to what you are being taught.  You should also always explore your own road in life. That's what I learned from the crew.

AM: Well coming from community where you do what you are told and you don't talk back, it taught me that my opinion also matters.  It doesn't matter how old you are or how young you are, but your opinion matters.  And treating each other with respect is all that matters.  I can debate with you, being that you're older than me and much more wiser than me, but what I say can change or influence your life in a sort of way. So, it gave us that kind of voice.  We're not scared anymore.  We can engage in any conversation.  And that's the only thing that matters, because conversation, there are backdoor conversations.  Backdoor conversations are conversations like, prevention, contraception, sex, and all.  You can't approach it, okay… Growing up, I never got told about those topics.  I never even conversated with my father or mother.  And CRF made me tackle those kind of-oh, sorry. It made me tackle those kinds of conversations with the group.  And now I’m more comfortable talking about them.  You can approach me with those topics and I'll tell you [unintelligible]…

TAN: [unintelligible] have taught me that I have a right to disagree with anyone.

RS:  Say that again.

TAN: I have the right to disagree with anyone, any age.  Like even with my teachers, I can tell them they are making a mistake or something.  It has boosted my confidence like… And then I can speak out and say my opinion with confidence.  Yeah.

RS:  So last question, which would be, if you were the president, how can you bring the practice of Ubuntu into South Africa's daily struggles?  What would you suggest?

JT: President?

RS:  If you are in charge of the country, and Ubuntu is an important concept to you, how do you imbue it into South Africa's daily life?

JT: Okay, one thing I would [unintelligible] if I was the president, I will make sure that everyone gets education, that's one thing.  And then if you're a richer [unintelligible] person then you should help out the poor communities, and as a president I don't think my income, I will be using it for myself.  It will be paid out for any child who needs money to go to our city so I can pay for their school fees and stuff.  And helping out with the drug addicts, the people who like our thugs and stuff. 12:25:17 I don't think they are thugs because they wanted to be thugs.  I think they are thugs because they didn't have another choice.  It was hard for them to make it in life.  So, if I give them a chance to be educated and get a job, a better job than they one they have, then it will be better, and there will be less thugs, less crime in our country.  And like, people will be blinded together.  There will be like, a mutual understanding between everyone.

RS:  So if you are the president, how do you imbue Ubuntu into daily life?

TAN: If I was the president, I'll make sure each and every child in South Africa has a home.

RS:  Say that again.

TAN: Each and every child in South Africa has a home.  I will…  [ shot setup ] Each and every child in South Africa has a home, has something to eat.  I will build a home, orphanage home in every area, so that no child can sleep under bridges and every child has something to eat.  I will send each and every child in South Africa to school.  Everyone [unintelligible] education, a proper education.

AM: Well, if I were to be president, I would make sure that from a young age, if you teach a child to care from a young age, it'll grow as the child grows.  The more they grow, the more the caring grows.  So, from a young age I would make sure there are interventions that help the young to see the world in the sense of Ubuntu.  To have Ubuntu in their heart and their soul and their spirit, because if those children grow up and have their own children, then the children will also have Ubuntu because of their parents and the way they were brought up.  So, I would make sure there are interventions and try to fight poverty, because poverty, I think most of the crime is caused from impoverished backgrounds.  So, therefore if you fight poverty, then there won't be so much crime.  [ shot setup ] 

RS:  Considering this thing called Ubuntu, what's your hope for South Africa?  Are you optimistic, pessimistic?  What do you hope for your country?

JT: For me, since like, I want to do law, I see myself in the future like, helping people who come from poor backgrounds but have been charged with backgrounds which they didn't even do.  But like, here is saying is like, the more money you have, the less chances you have of going to jail.  So, I think as a person who sees herself as a lawyer in the next few years, I will be working with people trying to get them out of jail for crimes they didn't do, because sometimes you just go to jail for something you didn't do, only because you didn't have the right lawyers. 12:28:30 Because state lawyers, they do nothing.  They just get paid for doing nothing.  So, like, I will try to help them out, making sure like, people don't go to jails for crimes they didn't do.  And I'll try to even working out with people and making a better South Africa, like, working with organizations, [unintelligible] organization, helping children, making sure like, they don't end up in stories like the ones that grew up with-because some of the people I grew up with have ended up in the cities being thugs, drinking alcohol the whole day, living like there is no tomorrow.  So, I have future plans of opening organizations for young people.

RS:  Are you hopeful about the future in South Africa?

JT: There will be change if like, people like us are leaders for the next few years, for the next 10 or 20 years from now.  Because like, there are good people out there.  And people like you have been given the chance to help out in SA.  Like young people who have got good dreams for SA, and like, we can make a better South Africa for us.  We can create it.

AM: Well I'm hopeful for the future, because there are people like us who try to promote a world, where there are people like you who take Ubuntu to the United States, and that's a way of promoting Ubuntu.  And I'm hopeful that there are more people like us, but they are undercover and one day we will just-Ubuntu will just be a thing that everyone has.  Because it's still there, but it's just people have to, I don't know, open the box of Ubuntu and see what's inside.

TAN: I have hope for the future, but I don't think there will be Ubuntu in the future, because many people, like, Ubuntu is fading in our communities.  I just hope that people will show it, but like, to be honest, there is no hope.  Young people are really damaged.  Maybe the future generation, generation after us will rise, will make sure that there will be Ubuntu, but in our generation, I doubt it.
 

---

Interviews with the young reporters

RS = Richard Sergay (interviewer)

SA Atlantis Ubuntu Youth Reporters:
NJ = Neorisha Juarius (interviewee)
CRJ = Chloe Robuinne Johnson (interviewee)
MH = Monique Hansen (interviewee)

 

NJ: My name is Neorisha Juarius. I’m the facilitator.

CRJ: I’m Chloe Robuinne Johnson. I am one of the presenters. I am 18 years old, finally. I am a senior at Atlantis Senior Secondary School.

MH: I am Monique Hansen and I’m also one of the volunteers for CRF. I started journalism at the Cape University of Technology and I’m 21 years old.

RS: Tell me what got you interested in journalism, radio journalism in the first place?

NJ: For me, basically was  the radio – because the radio was on in the house every single day. And sometimes I hear some [unintelligible] other times there was a stories and my interest was how do they get all the voices on there? How do they get every clip and everything to sound the way it is, and it’s like storytelling that’s actually [unintelligible] so that is what got me interested. [Noise interruption.] So I say, basically, it was curiosity that got me into journalism. 

CRJ: What got me interested in media journalism, I’m part of an organization called [unintelligible] Girl,   and NOCRF did a workshop there and the aspect of speaking on a – being on a – I don’t know, I have this thing about making a difference in our community, and I thought that being on radio doing this would be the best way to do it and – and yeah, that – that is how I got interested in it.

RS:  For you?

MH: Yeah, for me, I’m honestly I wasn’t in – I wasn’t interested in radio journalism, but I was interested in journalism because I was a volunteer for our school newspaper and I was, promoted to editor so I got the chance to [unintelligible] the station, and got a tour of the whole station and be part of a project called CRF and Give Youth a Voice and that was—that’s actually what I’m more interested in...

(END CLIP)
    
RS: Tell me again.

MH: Should I start over?

RS: Oh yeah. Go ahead.

MH: Okay. Honestly, I wasn’t interested in journalism as a whole because I was never – I had never – I had never have access to a radio station and being [unintelligible], but because of the [unintelligible] Foundation, they came to our school, I was more interested in journalism because I was a writer for my school newspaper and I was promoted to editor. So I came to the radio station, had a tour and spoke to the people around here, and I got more interested in it because, now I’m actually studying journalism at CPUT and because of the [unintelligible] Foundation I actually got more interested in broadcasting and being on the radio.

RS: You said something about making a difference. Why is that important?

CRJ: I don’t know. In all honesty, you know, life is tough for – for a lot of people and I’ve experienced things, and I don’t know. I – I guess I just decided that it doesn’t have to be, or it shouldn’t be and – and I felt that if nobody else is going to make a difference then I will try, and I don’t know. I – I felt – I honestly felt that doing this, being at the radio station, doing topics that, you know, are interesting but – but also informative and – and somewhere along the line, somebody’s going to listen and it’s going to affect them. And – and the – the feeling of – of knowing that, you know, you helped somebody, that somebody out there listened to your advice, that it’s helping them. It’s a great feeling.

RS: You’re nodding your head. You agree?

NJ: Yes, because whenever they do, like a certain topic there is someone definitely out there that’s listening, that they are touching, whether they’re giving information or telling someone where to get help, they give the information – actually they’re giving them the tools in order for them to get help and if they want to remain anonymous they can remain anonymous. So that’s why – and we get a lot of people that come into the station and that says, I really enjoy the topic that the youth did today because it was informative for me in regard to my daughter, and my daughter can go tell someone else now whereas to get help. So I think that it’s actually equipping our people with the necessary tools and information and ways and means to get help. So that is also making a difference.

RS: You’re all involved in the Ubuntu project. I’m curious, each of you, what Ubuntu means to you, and did it change over the course of the project?

MH: For me, it changed—

RS: But what does Ubuntu mean for you, first of all?

MH: Ubuntu, for me, means helping another person, helping a neighbor and being – just being nice and being kind and giving what you learn to some – for someone else. It’s just information, whether it’s sharing your value with someone else. And because of the Ubuntu Project we did, I – I feel like my community at Atlantis is ignorant and it doesn't have enough information on Ubuntu, that’s why some of us don’t practice it. I mean, I feel like having Ubuntu lives, having projects like this can either build you up and give you more information and knowledge is power and it can shape other people. 

RS: Ubuntu, what does it mean for you?

CRJ: For me, honestly, Ubuntu is a collaboration of so many things. I think, when you get down to it, it’s humanity. I know we did a couple of interviews with people – I mean, I went to school and I went and I asked them, “What is ubuntu? What do you think it is?” The answers that you get from people are surprising. People don’t know. I’m pretty sure we had one that said, it’s a sickness that cows get? That – that is not Ubuntu at all, and – and how do you practice it if you don’t know what it is. And I feel that doing the Ubuntu shows have – because I tell all my friends to listen in, and I told them to tell their friends and, you know, you have this big community listening to you, finding out what ubuntu is and, you know, people in our community – also, we found a lot of people that were actually practicing it, and we got the great opportunity to interview them, to speak to them and, you know, to find out how it is, because it’s a struggle. It’s a struggle to implement, you know? Many people can say, you need to have Ubuntu, but when it comes down to it, people don’t know what it is then how do you help them? How do you practice it? How do you change?

RS: And, before I get to you, what does practicing Ubuntu mean?

CRJ: Like I said previously, for me it’s humanity. So it might not be, you know, you don’t waiting on [unintelligible] to some sort of organization, it could just mean that, you know, of somebody that is in need of something and you’re helping them. Sometimes, giving somebody a compliment can – can change their whole day, and – and I feel that is Ubuntu as well. You know, people need that, and people should give it.

RS: A smile.

CRJ: Even – even a smile. Even a smile. You know, it’s all about people.

RS: What does Ubuntu mean to you?

NJ: Ubuntu to me each one teach one. I know it’s an old saying, but that’s what it means to me, because I remember when Chloe and Monique came to the radio station, they didn’t know anything about what is it they are presenting, but they had the curiosity into wanting to know, and for me, being the youth facilitator, teaching them all the tools and all the equipment and different radio formats, I felt good because it was like to me I’m making a difference in their lives and they can go out and encourage other youth to join the program. So, for me, that is important. I taught them something, and I know they will carry on for the future because now when they are gone, the legacy will still continue because they will be other volunteers in their place and they will take over my place being the youth facilitator, being the new youth facilitators and teaching new youth so that’s Ubuntu to me. Each one teach one.

RS: Did your sense of Ubuntu, when you did your reporting in the community, change what you learned from interviewing community members over the course of the project?

MH: I feel like it did because I did – because it was a few years back of doing the Ubuntu project and going to the labs and – but now, a year after that, I interviewed Desmond Tutu for the [unintelligible] and [unintelligible] because I was part of the – one of the projects. But I interviewed Desmond Tutu and he’s a smart guy so you have to know your questions, you have to know your knowledge and what stayed by me is, a person is a person because of other people. I think we all know that saying that he said, that his quote, and I could implement this but I learned here from the [unintelligible], from the ubuntu lab, and I could ask him like the detailed questions, the on top questions that I wanted to ask him about Ubuntu.

RS: Desmond Tutu, what’s his saying about Ubuntu?

MH: A person is a person because of other people.

RS: And what does that mean to you?

MH: For me it means I can’t do anything without someone else. Because, for example, applying for university. You don’t know what the [unintelligible] are, maybe you can ask someone that’s already in there to help you with the application, with what you need, and what you don’t need, what you have to do. And I think that’s one of the things that can apply to that: a person is a person because of other people.

RS: Did your sense of Ubuntu change over the period that you were reporting on?

CRJ: Ah, the period of reporting on Ubuntu, I – I personally, you know, I – I, like I said before, a part of the organization, and the fact that [unintelligible] children, and by doing interviews with people in the communities, community leaders, and seeing the struggles that we face implementing Ubuntu, I was able to, you know, transfer that – transfer that knowledge and information into advocating environment.   it helped me because you need to know yourself if you’re trying to address a national legislation –   and I don’t know, I was able to identify the problems that the community faces and through – through the knowledge of what Ubuntu is, you know, we see what is wrong, we see what shouldn’t be done, and we also find ways to improve, or creative ways to make it better, and through that we were able to draw up a draft and we were able to present it to the national parliament.

RS: Congrats.

CRJ: Thank you.

RS: As the youth facilitator, I’m curious, what were the values that you were trying to instill in these young reporters?

NJ: The knowledge that I tried to instill in all of them that I’ve met, I’ve been to 22 to 25 youth volunteers in the project and the values that I always try to instill – I have the saying that I – I don’t use it anymore because they’re used to it. I used it a lot, is that you should work hard so that one day your signature can become your autograph, and so it stuck to a lot of them, you know, and the value I think that added was the fact that they can do interviews, like     Monique said, now with Desmond Tutu, like going into parliament. I mean, it is a lot of stuff that they achieve and I think it was through being on the project as well. And also, I think that Monique studying journalism, which I'm going to study for the next year. So I think the values that I actually instilled in them was getting confidence,   being able to conduct interviews, getting the questions right. I mean, I can set up an interview with them today with the president and they will ace it because they already know what they need to do, what equipment they need to get, etcetera. And I know it’s things that one girl can [unintelligible], like I said, because I know they will be able to pass it on to other volunteers in media.

RS: Tell me about – journalism is a lot about teamwork. Would you agree?

NJ: Um-hm. 

MH: Yeah. I think I can agree with that because, like I said, a person is a person because of other people, and I implement it anyway. When – when I do my interviews for – for class or for an assignment or anything, it’s always something – someone I need to help me with – I’m not good with photography or I’m not good with the video, [unintelligible] the camera. I’m always good in like speaking to the camera and interviewing someone. But there’s always someone I need and I think,   that’s a good [15:01:00] thing,   having someone to depend on, having someone to – even though you have to do your own work sometimes, but have – just having – knowing that you have someone,  to have your back and that’s good.

RS:  Teamwork?

CRJ: Yeah, teamwork and me, I mean, everybody here can vouch for me. We’ve been through a lot of youth groups and – and we’ve stuck through it all.   people have come and gone but – but, you know, the – the – I don’t think I’d be the person I am today if it wasn’t for my team behind him. It’s more like family now the youth organization grow is like family. I’ll come here and I’ll sit and we’ll speak and, yes we get work done but it’s not always just about the work. You know, we – we work like we’re a machine, at times we, we have random interviews popping up that our station managers wrote for us, and I know people have my back. I know that I don’t have to panic. That, you know, you have assurance as well and – and people to support you and I feel like that is one of the most important things that any person can have. Yeah.

RS:  Did you find a sense of – you use the word confidence, an inner confidence, a strength, a voice that you didn’t know you had because of the program.

MH: Yeah, I think, again, back me on this because she knows how I was in doing well with I started with the project. It – it takes a lot of effort for me to adjust to a new space, a new place, because I was so, how can I say, I was – I was raised behind closed doors. I was never able to go out and meet new people, and because of the CRF project and being at the radio station, it opened many doors for me. I have confidence that I didn’t even know I had.   I could speak openly about my problems, I can speak openly about issues that I feel I have an opinion on, and I could never do that. And I think the CRF project helped me with that a lot.

CRJ: For me, I am always this bundle of nerves constantly. So I’m constantly on – on the run and I feel like when I came here the first time, very, very undefined [Laughs],   I’m – I’m still a nervous person. I always have been, but now I can – I can say with all confidence that life can throw me anything. I have the skills, I – I can manage it. Yeah. I – I – through – if it wasn’t for radio – for radio, there’s also CRF, I don’t think I’d be able to manage, you know, tough situations because you know, life skills as well, confidence is one them, yes, but also, you know, when life gives you pressing situations to deal with we learn how to overcome it. We learn how to stay calm, and to work through our problems as well, yeah. 

RS: I’m curious. When you went out to do your reporting in the community about Ubuntu and what it means, can you think back on a story or two that just struck you as oh, my gosh, this is Ubuntu? Do you remember one where they came back with it and – or, I’ll start with you guys.

CRJ: Okay. I think,  one that happened, close to home, our recorders got stolen. Yeah, and – and two of our reporters got robbed along the way. I think they were walking home, and the whole community rushed in. We – the community stuck together. The community got our recorders back and – and it happened almost instantly. As soon as it was reported we had people sharing the posts, we had people acting on it, and – and that, to me is one of the best senses of ubuntu that somebody can have. People who don’t know you, people who – who are practically strangers, starting to get in saying that this is wrong and we need to help as much as we can.

RS: Do you have a story that you remember?

MH: I can’t really remember one.

RS: That’s okay. Of all the reporting that was done, does a story stand out to you?

NJ: I think it was the one, that Chloe mentioned, yeah.

RS: Okay, that’s fine. I’m curious, they call this quirk the New South Africa, poster [unintelligible], does Ubuntu mean anything for you within the context of a new South Africa? Is it living up to expectations? Is it what you hoped for?

MH: I feel like it’s still a work in progress. The new democracy, our post-apartheid, people are still struggling to get to the point of peace and being kind to one another – Ubuntu. And yeah, so it’s work in progress for me because I haven’t seen this – a slow change, yes, but I don’t see a big change yet and I would like to see that in the near future, and if we can do it, like I said, my community is very ignorant and, they will have a lot of information on ubuntu and what it means and what it is. And I think we can have more labs and more projects to do that, then actually achieve having a big change. 

RS: And what would a big change be for you?

MH: Justice firstly,   in the – in our nation and, people just being human and, doing things for one another and it starts with our government and because we look up to them, we need them to do things, so yeah.

CRJ: Yeah, I feel like I agree with Monique on that. As Monique has said, it’s a – it’s a big work in progress. I – I know we’ve tried – we’ve struggled to get an ombudsperson for [unintelligible]. A representative for children, and I have been fighting for four years for it. I don’t know. I feel like that is one of the worst cases of people not practicing Ubuntu.   because it’s – it’s us, as the youth, that are standing up, but it’s also just a handful of us and – and the problem is that – that, as Monique said, justice doesn’t always happen. It’s not just the people in the community that are ignorant but it’s other people that are not willing to, you know, deal with the fact that we are facing bigger problems, like discrimination is happening. We’ve got so much negative factors, and there are people trying to make a change, but there’s nothing we can do if people themselves don’t change their mindset. So, the same with apartheid era. You need to change the mindset of the people and it’s difficult – it’s difficult for us as youth, a handful of us, to – to try and make this big dent in all of the nation, but here we are trying. I feel like we are living proof that Ubuntu exists in – in this world. Yeah.

MH: And I feel like racism, that she mentioned, it comes up everywhere. I was trying to get into a residence near my campus and the first thing they asked what was my race. And I feel like it shouldn’t even be on the page because,   the question that should be asked is what – what is my relationship between Cape Town and Atlantis, so I feel like it just comes up everywhere and it’s so unnecessary. And people should just look past that, and I think it’s we’re far, far from that, from getting to sketching racism off a form and it’s - if you want to do something.

RS: Someone said to me that the Rainbow Nation that Mandela was trying to create has crumbled. Is that too strong, do you think? What do you think?

NJ: I don’t – I don’t want to answer that question really because somewhat I feel yes and somewhat I don’t. The reason why I say I don’t feel that way is because we still have a lot of positivity that’s coming out of our country. We shouldn’t just look into broadcasting everything that is bad that is happening. Yes, people thrive on bad news. They want to watch bad news. It [unintelligible], whatever, but I mean, if you take a look at the good and you start in your own community first and try to help your own community instead of you trying to help the whole world with something, start first in your own home. Teach your children what ubuntu is. Teach your children how to play with other race, that it shouldn’t be a racial issue. It shouldn’t be like your next door neighbor is richer than you and you feel that you’re poor so your children shouldn’t mix with each other. Everything starts at a young generation at a young age, so if we shape the minds of youth at a young stage I think it will envision for the future, much more that is what Children’s Radio Foundation and Radio is doing for shaping Chloe and Monique.

RS: I’ve heard that before that the sense of local community is really important. Did you discover that in your reporting?

MH: Yeah, I did. Because, like I said, I was – I was raised behind closed doors, and I feel like people is used to living in their bubble and not coming out of the comfort zones and not used to being in, when you get out and actually speak to them and mix with other people with different backgrounds, different races, and I feel like a community can stand together if they just like look past, across everything that defines them.

(END CLIP)

MH: I mean, I was saying that people should look past – I think we – we’re defined by society by our race, about what are our backgrounds and our color or our skin and I think we should look past that, as a community. And if a community can do that, we can – we can then – we can actually do something.

RS: What surprised you most about doing the Ubuntu project, that you didn’t expect; what did you learn?

NJ: Knowing that there’s actually a whole lot of organizations in Atlantis that – that does good for the people of Atlantis that I didn’t know about. I learned there is an organization called USAA, United Sanctuary Against Abuse that helps abused women and children. They actually have a safe house in Atlantis. We,   the people that get abused, but they only specialized in women and children, women and children go to to get counseling to stay there maybe for a month or two until they get back on their feet, and USAA actually are helping to find, in that time, a job so that when they leave the safe house they actually can provide for the children or for themselves. And I also learned there’s an organization called Family in Focus that helps promote healthy living for children that I didn’t know about. So doing the ubuntu thing was making me realize all of these organizations that we have that I didn’t even know even existed in Atlantis.

RS: [unintelligible] organizations, what were some of the surprises for you?

CRJ: I think my biggest surprise was the ignorancy [sic] of our people. I mean, I’ve moved a lot. I’ve moved 15 times in and out of Atlantis and surrounding areas and [unintelligible], as well, and the mindset of the people is completely different. And how difficult it was for us to – to even get people to tell us what their interpretation of ubuntu was when they didn’t even really know themselves. And, you know, how difficult and really we had our work cut out for us, trying to – you know, inform people, as well because then instead of gathering information,   we had to go out and tell them this is what ubuntu is. These are examples of it, and then realizing that so little Ubuntu is being practiced in the community and that we really needed to take a stand.

MH: I think the same for Chloe, because all the other people that we – that we listen to, that we look up to, that’s supposed to know about these things because, like they say, they’re wiser, but I feel like when we did the ubuntu labs there was a lot of young people and I loved that. Like just coming in there and a lot of young people talking about helping each other, ubuntu, what it means for them, and I think – now I think it’s the younger people that are supposed to – like it’s on us, it’s more pressure on us to try to explain, make it easier and understandable for the elders on what is Ubuntu and how to implement it.

RS:  How important is that – is the voice of the youth in South Africa in your mind?

MH: Now, since – since I started with the CRF projects, I feel like we are the – the voices of those who we call – who don’t have a voice to speak and, and it’s a personal thing for me because I was behind closed doors. I couldn’t like say what I wanted to say, and because of this project I can say what I want to say, I can tell stories of other people and I think that that’s what I love the most about the radio, I can talk to other people and give them a voice and having them – giving them acknowledgment, and I think I will like that a lot in Atlantis.

CRJ: Okay. I feel that the views of the youth are really important, especially now, lately because there’s been a lot of youth uprising, ah, and finally, after years of working, and Monique can vouch for this, we are being taken seriously. Not only by the government but also by the people in the community. I know a couple of years ago we did a youth march for the – against the 16 days of activism, we – we, as youth, did everything. We drew up petitions for people to sign. We – we completely overtook it and it was a success – a success, sorry. So, I do believe that, you know, as youth, it falls on us, because the adults are not going to do it then we need to. And – and it also helps us for further in life because I feel like the good that we’re doing now can only increase the good that we are going to be able to do at a later stage. So why now start now with youth?

RS:  What do you think about all that?

NJ: You know, one thing that I realized was that youth don’t want to listen to adults. It’s almost like you keep on preaching and preaching the same thing. Allow me to make my mistakes, allow me to find out stuff for myself, but when this whole ubuntu thing happened and when on issues, we realized that youth pay attention to other youth. Like the stories that they can relate to and just the fact that it’s another young person sitting behind a mic speaking to them it’s much more – it makes much more of an impact than an adult doing the show, speaking to them, instead of them feeling like, okay, preach, preach, preach. But now it’s like a young person that’s on my level that’s talking to me so it makes it interesting for me and it makes me want to feel – or it actually makes me feel like, listen, if she can do it and she’s only 16 years old, and she can speak to other youth, it – I  think that’s like empowerment for – for the next youth to actually think for themselves and tell themselves actually this person is trying to make a change, is trying to make a difference. Let me pay attention to it and try and see what I can do from my side to help improve the situation in our country. 

RS:  How optimistic are you about the future of South Africa? You’re making that face. What does that face mean?

MH: Because it’s like, yes and a no for me. I am a very optimistic person at times, and about the future of South Africa, I feel like we have a lot of potential. There’s a lot of factors that we can look at that can change the – to change how we see the world, how we see South Africa, to see the next person, we just have to use it, what we have. And I think yeah.

RS:  Okay, you?

CRJ: I always say I’m the most optimistic pessimist ever. [Laughs] I don’t know. When it comes to South Africa as a whole, again, it comes to the mindset of the people. We can – we can [unintelligible] and try and make a change and we can reach a few people, but if – if everyone in the nation does not decide that what they’re doing is wrong, or if they don’t realize that, you know, something – something wrong is happening here and that something actually needs to be changed, I don’t know how far we are going to get. But as Monique said, you know, we have resources now. We have a lot of potential, especially in the youth and who knows what can happen in the future. 

RS:  Of all the media, you guys chose radio. Why radio?

MH: I feel that radio is more It can – so I was – I had confidence problems, so behind the mic no one can see me, so it’s the easiest thing to do. I use the platform for, like I said, for the youth to voice what they – voice their opinions, what they think, their thoughts, and because it’s a – a common resource it’s easy to access in my community. So it’s easier for radio to do radio – to give to the people to have your voice heard and get the message across. It’s easier – it’s accessible. It’s –   it’s cheaper than [unintelligible].

RS:  For you?

CRJ: For me, yeah, I think of [unintelligible] by chance. If – you see, I feel like if they didn’t have the workshop then I wouldn’t be here today, but—

RS:  Well, let me put it another way. What did you grow to love about radio?

CRJ: I love talking. [Laughs] I love it. And [unintelligible] they call me Bubbles at the stage in the beginning.

(END CLIP)

CRJ: I love the aspect of sitting and communicating with people, finding out where they come from, finding out the problems they face, but also finding out solutions to it. And you get to work with different people from different places from different races, it builds you up as a person and – and I have like the biggest friend list ever now. You meet people, you – but most importantly, you know, it comes back to making a change and – and, it’s in the community this is something founded by the community. We can be proud and say something good is coming out of the community amongst all of the bad. Radio Atlantis, here we are, we are presenters, but shows the people in the community as well, that, you know, we are people just like them, and they can make the change, too, if they want to.

MH: And sometimes I feel like you speak a lot of nonsense behind this mic, communicate like the feedback, and people coming to the door and actually saying I love your voice, and I love your topic, and I want to do something about it, I want to interact with, I want to communicate with you, and [unintelligible] in – that also helps from the community. So that’s a big plus.

RS: What do you love about radio?

NJ: What I love about radio is the fact that they mentioned it all. You get to deal with everyday people that you actually feel you would never meet in your life and get to meet them. Radio teaches you ways and means how to – always be on time. [Laughs]   it reaches out, or it actually teaches you topic-wise what topics you should discuss. The love that you get from your community of being on – and especially for me, why I have radio is the research that you get to do. You get to do a lot of research and you equip yourself with so much knowledge which you can actually share with someone else and that’s what I love about radio, broadcasting—meeting people and going out and know that my voice is making a difference, or I’m making a difference in their lives. So at least I’m helping. [Laughs] That’s what I love about radio.

--End of interviews--