Transcript of journalist and senior media executive Richard Sergay’s interview with Netta Weinstein for the “Stories of Impact” series.
Watch the video version of the interview.
Find the transcript from Guy Itzchakov, who is also featured in the video, here.
Richard Sergay (interviewer)
Netta Weinstein (interviewee)
Intro: I’m Netta Weinstein, Associate Professor, Department Psychology, University of Reading.
Q. Why did you decide to study listening?
My interest in listening actually began with an earlier interest in self-expression. My core interests throughout the years have been how do we express ourselves openly, authentically, and with support to others. How do others encourage us to do that? What resources do they provide us that allow us to really be ourselves in conversations, to share views, to bring in our best and genuine selves into our relationships with others? And it became clear that listening is a really important way that we support one another and allow that self-expression.
Q. What is listening, what does it mean to listen?
Listening means different things to different people. So for us, listening is about the way that we convey our attention, interest, and valuing of others. And it’s also the way that we convey that we understand others. Listening is really about attending to someone else, what they’re saying, what they’re sharing, and really under— trying to understand and value that person in the process. So one way to think about listening is to think about listening in terms of the behaviors that we engage in, in order to be able to fully attend to someone else. Listening is also about, I’m trying to think of it sorry—
So listening, I’ll stick with the behavior question. But the other facet of listening, so listening is also very much about the way that we process what someone else is sharing with us, the way that we not only attend to them, but really understand what they have to say. And finally, listening is also about feeling listened to. If we think about the question of what is listening, we can think of a listener, that’s the person who is attending, but actually feeling listened to is equally important. And the idea is when we effectively convey that interest, attention, and understanding of others, they feel listened to, they feel like they are understood. They feel like they are heard. They feel like what they had to share has been taken in and processed by the person that they’re talking to.
Q. Conditions that facilitate good listening or high quality listening?
To listen well, we need to be in the right headspace. And in a way our hearts need to be in the right place as well. So to listen well, we need the space to attend carefully to what someone’s saying. We need to focus our energy on processing and understanding what they’re saying. To listen well, we need to be open to what they have to say. So it’s very difficult to listen well but have the intention to stop someone talking, to intervene, to share your own perspective, to really, really engage in listening, to really demonstrate to someone that you are listening, it’s important to be really inside open to what they have to say. And so the flip side of that is that we listen poorly when we are defensive, when we feel threatened, when we feel stressed or tired. Those kinds of things can also interfere with good or high quality listening.
Q. Is there a most important player in the listening process, meaning the listener or the person speaking?
So in reality, when we are looking at people’s conversations, when we think about the way conversations look, you know, naturally when people talk, there’s a listener and there’s a speaker, but people change back and forth in terms of what their role is. So in a conversation, both or all participants have the chance to be a good listener, and have the chance to be an effective speaker. Both are very important and both drive the experience and the outcomes. What happens, you know, as a result of that conversation. And so the listener is an active partner in that conversation. And even a good speaker is not going to successfully navigate a relationship or a conversation without the listener participating fully and contributing through their attentive and high quality listening. But there is a way as well that the speaker can shape the way that they respond and receive the listener, the way that they frame those attitudes, opinions and views that they have. So that they essentially support the listener and do their own job.
Q. What do you think makes listening so powerful?
To really listen well to somebody else opens up a space, where speakers, where those who are trying to convey their views, feel really understood, heard, and that they can express themselves, and that creates a bond between the listener and the speaker, that isn’t possible without that space being created. And so one thing that listening does is it builds a strong relationship, even a relationship or intimacy in that moment, where I feel like I can be heard and understood. Another way to say it in psychology, as we say, people feel that they are autonomous, in that moment, not just free to do what they like, but free to be who they are free to express themselves, have their opinions, values, share those values, and be self-congruent, basically be who they are outside, have that represent who they are on the inside. Listening is very powerful for allowing that. And it creates that sense of intimacy, that bond between people who are having a conversation together. And very importantly, in the absence of listening, if someone is sharing something, so let me just say it in a slightly different way. When somebody shares something that is difficult for them, that makes them vulnerable, that feels scary, that feels threatening, or if they anticipate that the person they’re disclosing to is going to react by rejecting them, by judging them, by evaluating them. What listening does is it conveys, I’m willing to hear what you have to say, and I’m willing to engage in this discussion, taking your perspective seriously, and valuing where you are coming from. So in a way, it creates a foundation for having an honest conversation, where both sides feel like in the best case scenario, they can bring their full selves forward, be heard, and maybe they won’t come out fully agreeing, but the process will be one where effort is made on both sides.
Q. Do you need to create a safe space for that sort of listening?
Good listening comes from the effort and the ability and the comfort of the listener. It is very important when we have a conversation with somebody else or when we’re engaging in dialogue to, to create the ideal atmosphere, one that is, where there aren’t distractions, there aren’t observers, where people feel safe to listen and, and, and speak. But listening can come from within. So one of the things that makes listening very difficult is sometimes we don’t want to hear certain things from others. And through listening, we essentially are asked, asked or asking ourselves to put those views aside, our own needs aside in the moment and say, I’m willing to put aside my perspective and hear what you have to say for now. And that kind of courage and that challenge, that needs to be met from people being willing to sit with their own discomfort when they hear things that they might not want to hear or that challenges their own perspectives. And attend to those different views. So the environment, yeah… Yeah, in a way, we can encourage and we can educate people about how to do this well, and how to understand what’s going on for them internally that makes it difficult to listen, or what happens to them when they listen really well, and how they can capture those moments where they feel really interested in someone else. Environment certainly helps with that, but environment can’t drive it in itself.
Q. Are there nonverbal behaviors to good listening?
The nonverbal behaviors and listening are a really important part of conveying I am attending to you. And those who are speaking, pick up on those nonverbal behaviors. And so when we listen well, we do so both by internally processing what is said, but also conveying that we’re processing what is said through the way that we use our bodies to be open, to show that we’re attending, to show that we’re not distracted and not thinking about other things. Good listeners use their eyes to make good eye contact. They, they are showing through, through their, the way that they— I started doubting myself part of it is because it’s a little bit of a cultural— it is not yet clear to me if that’s a universal principle. So that’s a Western view that we use things like eye contact, to convey our understanding. And I’m not really sure actually, whether it’ll translate universally. But I, and Guy might have different views on the matter. But from my perspective, we certainly use our bodies, our eyes and our postures to convey, yes, I’m hearing you, we nod to say yes, I understand what you have to say. And that’s an important piece of communicating to the speaker, I’m here with you. I’m not thinking or engaged in something else right now.
Q. Are we able to resolve all the differences without listening?
I don’t think I can answer that question. I suspect that the role of listening is that it allows us to come together and discuss and share our differences with one another, in a more open, receptive, and intimate space. So for me, listening, what it does is that it creates the atmosphere that is conducive to us, being open to others perspectives, being willing to explore things that ideas and values and backgrounds that make us uncomfortable, being willing to challenge ourselves more, in a way it is kind of like the, listening is, in a sense, the catalyst that allows us to bring ourselves in and challenge ourselves to change our perspectives.
Q. What’s the value of listening as a means of getting someone to rethink their own beliefs?
When we are asking someone to change their beliefs or their attitudes, we’re asking them to do something that’s quite difficult, which is to challenge themselves to acknowledge that maybe they weren’t right all along. Maybe there are other perspectives other than theirs that mean that their worldviews might need some adjusting. We’re asking them to put aside their values and identities to some extent. Sorry, I got distracted…
So essentially, essentially, when we’re asking people to change their attitudes and opinions, we’re asking them to reconsider what they have held to be true. Some of that could potentially mean giving up on the sense of safety that yes, I understand the world, I can predict the world and, and my interpretation of the world is correct. Some of that means those things that my culture taught me, my community, my family taught me, those truths I knew might not be so true after all. We might be asked to challenge our own identities and what it means to be who they are, who we, I’m sorry— what it means to be who we are and what it means to, to value who we are, you know, can we think of our identities as a positive thing, if we’re asked to consider someone else’s worldview, we might find that we’re not, we’re not on the right side of things. So it is a potentially threatening and scary experience, to listen to those who disagree with you. And, and the internal experience, the feeling that we have inside that we’re feeling defensive, that we’re feeling threatened, that there’s some kind of way we need to adjust our understanding of the world. That’s not an easy experience to overcome. That’s something that requires effort, that requires will to say, I’m going to sit with these feelings, and I’m going to sit with my discomfort and take a different perspective. And I’m going to try to be open in this moment. What good listeners do is they help to create that sense of safety. And that sense of openness. That means that defensiveness isn’t the most overpowering thing in the moment. And as I put those feelings aside, and I feel that sense of receptiveness and that sense that we’re on the same team, because you’re willing to listen to me, even if just for the moment, that means that maybe our disagreements aren’t as fundamentally threatening to me as maybe they feel otherwise.
Q. Can listening help reduce polarization both on a personal and societal level?
That’s a really good question. I don’t think it’s one that we can answer with confidence quite yet. So what I’d love to see is more research and more understanding of how far we can take these principles. How much can we use listening to tackle some of the big problems that we have in society and in our relationships with other people? And so I think a lot more work is needed to know what is the reach of listening. What are the constraints of listening? How far can it take us? What else do we need to do when we listen, is listening enough? Likely listening isn’t enough to solve all of our problems. So along with listening, we need to think about, about what else we can do to support one another, what else we can do to understand one another, and to resolve differences. And even more so, even if we can create some understanding, does that understanding translate to action, what we want to see is people behaving towards one another in a different way, making sacrifices in order to do that, giving up some of the benefits maybe that they’ve had in their life or their comforts in order to do that. And those are hard things to ask people. So is listening enough to do that, I don’t know. I think listening is, without listening, we cannot do it. So listening is the foundation that we build on. We need other blocks alongside listening, in order to really achieve that kind of change.
Q. Listening with empathy and listening with its relation to humility, virtues?
So I believe that, that, let me start that again.The reason that we have for listening is very important. If we are listening in order to be able to make our point, if we’re listening in order to end a conversation, so that we can dominate the conversation. If we’re listening, when we already feel we know the answer. That type of listening is not going to be conveyed as truly open. So, there is an amazing ability of speakers to understand that they are not truly being listened to. Speakers who are receiving poor quality listening, where the listener is coming in with their own agenda, can readily pick up on that, on that agenda, on the inauthenticity of the, of the listener. And so, when we listen well, in an ideal world, we listen from a place of humility. That is we don’t have all the answers. We listen from a place of empathy. We want to value oh, I’m sorry, we listen from a place of empathy we value the person that we’re listening to, even if in the moment we might not agree with the things they say, we might not even value the things they say or the things they do. But we recognize that in that moment, that person has intrinsic value and the value to, to speak and share their perspective. Listening I— I’m trying to think of a way of saying this, but we need to learn more about listening with empathy. And we need to learn more about listening with humility. But there’s really good reason to believe that if we listen without that sense of humility, without that valuing of another person, that it will not be effective, it will not be felt as genuine, and it won’t create the same kind of intimate, safe space. That induces, conduces expression and, and sharing and vulnerability and change.
Q. You’re describing almost a sense of intellectual humility in listening?
That is correct, yeah.
Q. Why do we fail to listen so often?
Listening is difficult. And— so listening is— listening is difficult, I think we often fail to listen well, because we need to be in the right space for it, both in terms of our ability to attend to others, our ability to set aside our differences and value others, and our ability to really comprehend what others are saying and what the meaning is in the things that they say. It requires a lot of ourselves to listen well, and especially when we disagree, and especially if we’re stressed, and especially when threatened or tired. And so for, if we— we can think about listening as a skill that we build as a muscle. And it’s something that we can train at, we need to practice at, we need experience of doing. And the more of that experience we have, both to listen well, but also to understand ourselves during the listening process. What are our reactions when we’re listening? How are we feeling about our conversation partners? How are other stressors, influence— influencing? How are the other things that we’re stressed or worried about influencing our ability to listen in the moment? We need to have all of those things in place in order to listen really well. And so it is a big challenge, to listen really well to somebody.
Q. Does listening matter if we already agree?
Listening matters, even if we agree. And the reason is that what listening allows us to do in any relationship, in any conversation is to understand somebody else. If we think about parents and children, it is very important that a parent listens to their child, even if their child is sharing an event from the day, an experience they had where they might have felt hurt, sad, angry, a challenge that they have at school, even in relationships, like parent-child relationships, where parents want the best for their kids, it’s still tough to listen. And it’s still extremely important to listen. We find in research that children respond well to parents who are listening with attention, who understand, who are showing valuing, even when it’s hard to do, and they feel that intimacy, and they feel that openness, and they want to share more, even in those circumstances. And I can give more examples of listening when we agree, because it’s I think, I think every conversation benefits from good listening and the more intimate it is, the more personal, the more emotional, the more that listening is extremely important.
Q. Those other examples?
Other examples are, gosh, there’s so many I’m trying to think— there, you know, there’s romantic partners, there’s teachers, really any kind of relationship…
Q. Romantic partners?
So often, you know, we can think about romantic relationships, we can think about romantic relationships as a really good context where listening matters and often we take listening for granted is, you know, one of those skills that we could bring into the relationship that would improve the well-being of our partners and the quality of our of our connection with our partners. One of things that we often think about a, you know, relationship is one partner saying, but you don’t understand me, you don’t hear me. Often we take for grant— I don’t want say that. Often we forget to listen to those that we love, those that we spend a lot of time with, because we’re preoccupied with our own experiences, our own challenges, stressors, those things that we’re thinking about. But actually taking a moment to really attend to your partner at the end of the day when they’re sharing something that had gone wrong, some feeling they had when they share a concern about something that you share, whether it’s, you know, a parenting challenge or a big life decision, or even in the moment, an argument, those moments of really stopping and saying, okay, I want to hear what you have to say, I want to listen to you. Stepping back, not interrupting and really attending. That's a really important way to promote intimate relationships where people feel open and safe to talk.
Q. Are there side effects of listening when we try to resolve disagreements?
One of the most powerful things that we see with listening is that when we are listened to, it’s beneficial for our well-being. So listening helps people to feel better, both about themselves, to have more positive emotions, to have more that sense of connection. Listening is very conducive to well-being. And so when we’re listened to, we have a sense of well-being. And that is also true when we have disagreements. If you think about a disagreement where people don’t listen to one another, it becomes a kind of boxing match, you know, we just go up against one another. And we don’t, we aren’t necessarily trying to understand others perspectives, but rather, we’re trying to change them. We know from 30 years of research that when we feel that we are understood, when we feel that we can be ourselves, we have positive well-being and flourishing. It's one of the things that underlies well-being, in fact, we can’t have well-being without that sense that we can be who we are. And so listening is very important for that. And if we think about, you know, we can think about listening, we can think about listening for attitude change. And listening might be one of those important tools that can help us to resolve differences and maybe open up each other’s minds. But what it also does is build more of those connections that make us feel like we are part of a bigger, more positive community, that we can be who we are in that world, in that community. And that’s something that we know is extremely important for well-being and for psychological growth, that we grow through that experience, we’re more able to learn about ourselves, we’re more willing to explore ourselves. And I speculate that it doesn’t just happen in the moment. But it could be that when we are listened to really well, we go away thinking about that topic more deeply, because we have that openness.
Q. Make the connection between human flourishing and listening?
So this is my definition of flourishing but, but let me think about how to say this…
When we are listened to well, we flourish. And the ways in which we flourish, have to do with the ways that we are able to understand ourselves, and engage in a process of what we call self-integration. That is, we’re able to take more of our different experiences, values, emotions, behaviors, some of those might be in perfect harmony, but some of them might be misaligned with others. And that internal sense of I’m not congruent with myself is psychologically not a positive place to be. To the extent that we can integrate our different experiences, we can explore ourselves, have self-awareness, self-understanding, an interest in curiosity about ourselves, that allows us to grow as individuals, to take in more of our world, to engage our behaviors from a place of, I’m doing this because it’s important to me, or I’m doing this because I value it, rather than I’m doing it because I should or because I have to. So we engage our experiences more volitionally, with more of ourselves going into our behaviors, and that kind of, you know, I’m going to bring my best self to my activities, to my relationships, I’m going to really take on the things that I care about, pursue the goals that I care about. That sense of I can bring my best self forward is what allows us to feel that sense of meaning in life, the sense of a life well lived, the feeling of positive emotions, it doesn’t resolve all the difficulties or the stresses that we have, it certainly doesn’t make bad feelings go away. But it allows us to be maybe a bit stronger and a bit more, more of ourselves when we tackle those kinds of challenging and stressful life experiences. And so flourishing from my perspective is really about having that inner strength that comes from knowing myself, understanding myself, and using that knowledge to guide my own behaviors.
Q. What is supportive listening?
Supportive listening can be different things, depending on what the context is, what the relationship is, what the conversation is, if we’re talking about two individuals talking or if we’re talking about a group of people or a society. But essentially, when I talk about support the, the way that listening can be supportive, the way that we convey support through listening, is creating a space where people feel like they are valued, where people feel like they can be themselves. And so support is really about supporting the speaker, supporting the other, in expressing themselves, in feeling that sense of intimacy, and engaging me with openness and a lack of defensiveness.
Q. What do you think the enemy of good listening is?
There are several that come to mind.
If we think of it, so, good listening, good listening is about being attentive. Good listening is about being attentive, understanding, and a valuing of the other person. When we show good listening is very important to follow through with conveying that we do truly understand what was said. If we attend to somebody, we nod our heads, we stay quiet, we give them the space to talk. And then we share something back that says, you know what, I did not understand what you said at all. And I have no interest in exploring that with you, that undermines our attempt to convey to them, you know, what I was trying to get you in that moment. And so, one way to, one way to undermine our own listening efforts, is, if in a way, we’re showing the listening, but we’re not doing the listening, and we convey that with a full lack of understanding and interest. So one of the things that we like to do when we think about training good listeners, is, we like to think about not just the quiet parts, but the parts where we talk. And we often don’t think about listening as having this talky part. But actually, the talking is really important. And a good listener conveys their understanding of others by talking in a minimal way to say, you know, I heard you saying, this, was I right in understanding that. Did I understand you correctly? Those kinds of questions and those kinds of reflections about what was said, demonstrate, I really want to understand what you have to say, I’m not just giving you a few minutes, or I’m not just giving you a little bit of space, in order to say it. If we listen, and then we express a lack of regard, a lack of valuing, if we try to disrupt the process at some point, in order to show that actually, not only do I not agree with you, which maybe is fine, but actually I don’t care to try to agree with you, I don’t care to try to understand you. That space that I’ve just created is not going to take me anywhere. So that’s one. I think the other important thing is if we’re, if we are distracted. So if we are trying to listen well, we find ourselves getting distracted, we find ourselves bombarded with ideas about what we’ll be doing in the future or what we should be doing, ideas about something that has happened that we’re now ruminating about. When we become distracted from that moment, sharing that moment with others, those distractions interfere with our ability to listen.
Q. Your take on both positive and negative on technology and listening?
I don’t want to go there. It’s not an area that we fully understand right now.
Q. Are there tools that help in the workplace that make sense for good listening?
Absolutely. So good listening is really important in the workplace, it’s important from our supervisors, those people who are responsible for us. It’s important in our daily conversations with others, but it’s also important when we disclose something that has been troubling us, that’s been challenging. When we disclose a goal that we want to pursue, we'd love to have ideas about how to reach those goals. So it is key to supporting colleagues at work and to finding ourselves supported at work. And, you know, I do want to say that I think Guy can speak really well, probably better to the research that’s been done in the workplace. But one of the things that I could speak about if it’s helpful to maybe compliment that is the work that we’ve been doing in policing.
So, when we think about influencing others at work, you know, we think about the workplace as a place where we want employees to reach goals, meet expectations, produce things, we’re asking a lot of employees in the workplace. And often workplaces forget that alongside expectations, the ideal environment is one where we support others. And the question is, how do we support others. And that’s a, that’s a tricky thing to do in the workplace, because those relationships aren’t necessarily as intimate and comfortable and informal as those in the home. But when we think about the workplace, it’s, there’s a lot of research that shows that it’s very important to feel heard, and what we, sorry— There’s a lot of research that shows that it’s very important that we feel heard at work, heard by our colleagues heard by our supervisors, and listening is a way to stop and convey in communications, in individual meetings, I want to hear what your views are about what you’re doing, the impact it has for you, the challenges you faced and where you’re going. So that’s just a little bit of background actually. The other way, the other way that we— sorry, let me say another way… the other way that we convey—
The other way that we try to influence others at work is through education and training that we provide them in the workplace. One of the things that organizations do is they invest a lot of resources, time and money, into educating employees in skills that they need to have for workplaces. Increasingly, we’re beginning to understand that one of the skills that we need to have at work, that’s important for us, is to be able to value our colleagues and also to be inclusive within the workplace, that is to value, understand as much as possible, respect and communicate effectively with those who are different from us, who come from different backgrounds, who might not have had the same opportunities, historically or currently. And who might have different perspectives. Organizations are increasingly investing and trying to understand those experiences of individuals from different backgrounds, but also, how can we promote an inclusive workplace, one where people value one another, one where people can attempt to interact with, respect one another, even if they come from different backgrounds, and having that sense of cultural humility as well that maybe I don’t fully understand where others are coming from, and I could understand their cultures, backgrounds better, and that’s going to be a lifelong process for me to gain that kind of awareness. In organizations and for me and work with policing, we've been making efforts to try to build that sense of understanding through educating, through both informing people and inspiring people around how they can create change. And this work is really new, so I’m not going to, I can’t speak to a whole lot of data yet, I can only speak to the values that underlie it. But essentially one of, one of the tools that is very important to convey when we’re trying to increase inclusion in the workplace, and especially in environments like policing, where it is very important that we are acting with integrity, that we are fair, that we’re just, and that those values live intrinsically within the organization of policing. It's those values that the organization will very gladly admit to having. And so the question is, how do we get the employees within policing officers and staff to behave in line with the values that they hold already, to some extent and that the organization holds? One of the things that we’ve been really focusing on is how do we get people in a place like policing, where it really is important that we value and respect others, both in terms of how officers and staff communicate and interact with those in the communities where they work, and also how they interact with one another because even, not even, within policing, policing is a high pressure job, it’s an intense, time intense, time involved job, it is a very stressful place to work and those relationships between colleagues is a very important way that people flourish and people do well in that kind of climate. And so how do we build better relationships, not just for those who are like us, but also for those who are coming from different perspectives? What we are trying to do is build the skills and the values needed to drive that kind of change of, I’m going to go from a place of thinking that I know the right ways to behave to my colleagues in the community, to a place where I’m open to learning more, and I’m open to thinking about new ways that I can contribute positively to my workplace. And I want to live in line with those values, to treat people with fairness and integrity and respect others, those values that most likely officers and staff to some degree, or do you hold. I’m going to get in trouble saying these things— But it’s such a politically, just be sensitive when you do edits that is a politically very sensitive topic right now, and a little terrifying to speak to.
But essentially, one of the ways that we can really create that valuing in the workplace, and the ways that officer and staff office— and the ways that officers and staff members relate to community members is around learning to listen and learning to create that space, to hear what others have to say. It’s an important skill to have. When we think about training people or educating people about how to make their workplace more positive and more inclusive, it’s important to have the building blocks, the tools in order to turn those values into action. Listening is a really important tool for doing that. Because when we listen to others, whether or not they come from a similar background, different background, whether or not they are, I’m not gonna go there, but— But essentially, whether or not they come from a similar background to ours, or a different background, we can learn more about them. And we can communicate with them and interact with them in a way that makes them feel more included, more part of the team, more taken into consideration. The other thing that—
The other thing is when we educate people in the workplace, often we do that with what we think of as more formal training or formal education where employees in the case of policing, officers and staff come and they learn something for some time. So they’re ed— they come in and they’re— they learn the skills, values, and also difficulties and challenges around a certain topic like inclusion or diversity in the workplace. When we have those sessions, what we’ll tend to do is instruct people, we want to teach them, we want to inform them. So we tend to as educators doing this kind of workplace training, we tend to have an educational approach, we show slides and we talk to those slides and inform people about this is what’s going wrong. This is how we think we can fix it. These are the problems you might have. This is why you should be different. The problem is, when we give people information and try to create that change through giving them information, we might show them that there is a problem. We might even show them ways to approach that problem. But we don’t allow them to really reflect on and consider how they feel about it, what their motivation is, why they should really make the extensive effort to better themselves to contribute more positively. And so those kinds of trainings in themselves, if we think about trying to educate somebody about, you know, a problem in the workplace, problems like prejudice, micro-aggressions, banter, we’ve been talking a lot about banter and how humor can hurt others in unintended ways. When we try to educate them about problems in ways they could solve those problems, it’s important that we create a space where we can also listen to their concerns, listen to their interests, even if we don’t agree, and that they listen to one another. And we can role model that kind of space where we do attend to one another. Now, I’ll just say one more thing, which is, I don’t, I don’t think that will solve all the problems. So if I am on record, saying like, if we listen, we can change, we can make racist, not racist, I think that is, you know, actually the term racist, I won’t I— I don’t feel entirely comfortable with either. But let’s say we can’t, it’s not enough to listen to someone about their prejudiced views. For us to correct those views. There’s no research that shows that that’s true. But it’s an important foundation for building that trusting relationship where we can then challenge them, request those changes. And that’s where we’re really going in the next few years that I’m very excited about to try to really systematically test is that the case that, we need to have that open, receptive, safe, respectful environment where we listen to one another, to even have the kinds of conversations that educate people and inform people about how to be more inclusive and positive in the workplace.
Q. The increase of political tribalism and listening, is there a way of getting at good listening, high-quality listening, as societies seem to splinter and fracture?
This is an area we need a lot more research about, as is true with many of the areas around listening. Having said that, we can take a lot of what we know from how we listen to others in our conversations, and try to understand what it means to listen at the societal level. And so I’ll give you one example of what I mean by that. When we listen to others in a conversation, we are conveying that we are attending to what they’re saying, that we understand what they’re saying, and that we value them. Now, when we’re talking at the societal level, we don’t have those nonverbal behaviors anymore, we’re not in a, you know, a situation where we can read other people and see, are they creating the space for us to talk. However, many of the principles very likely could apply. So we can think about at the societal level, what it means to feel listened to. And that could very well be about feeling understood. Feeling comprehended. And that doesn’t mean that the other understands what they want to understand from what I’m saying. But rather, that I feel that the true meaning of what I’ve said has been received by the other person, they recognize the meaning of what was said. And so those, that principle of comprehension, we can think at the societal level that people want to be understood. And, and that’s true in terms of political discord as well, that we have different values, we have different views, different strategies. And in a sense, it’s very difficult to set those aside and really understand the other perspective. But that might very well be the thing that people are looking for. And the other side of valuing that we can take from relationships and think about society as valuing, one of the things that we might forget to do is to value other people who are different from us or who have different political positions or views. In a way, seeing those people as barriers rather than as intrinsically valued and valuable, could stand in the way of resolving those differences. If we see them as barriers, challenges, if we assume that they are incorrect, and, and stick to that assumption, it’s very difficult to convey listening at the societal level, or to convey listening to those who are different from us. And so, even at the societal level, to go from, I don’t want to hear what you have to say to let’s have a conversation, let’s talk about what we’re looking for. That’s important. It might not fix everything, though. That’s, the difficult thing Richard is, at this point, I’m legitimately not sure that in terms of resolving political, like massive political differences, that we can say much about listening in itself. I think there’s good reason to believe that valuing and comprehension are really important. But there, there’s a way that we can, can I speak sort of off the record and say, you know, Republicans and Democrats, if we use that as an easy example, they can, they can say, I fully understand what you want. And I fully understand what your values are, and I do not value those things. And I do not want those things. And so comprehension is clearly not enough. And valuing is very difficult. And valuing without change might also be unsatisfying, so it feels like maybe the way to say it is listening might be an important building block for having those open conversations. It's a great starting point, it’s a really important starting point, for having open and honest conversations.
Q. If you can’t agree on the facts, evidence, how can you listen to the other person, as you debate political issues?
I don’t know that I can speak to that as a researcher. I think the important thing for me, the important takeaway for me, from what we know so far, and can say with any confidence, is, let me try to think how to really— So for me, it’s about the relational piece, and it’s about the internal, psychological internal experience of openness. What is going to be driving positive change, very likely will have to do with those who are involved, having a sense that they are open to the process, that they’re not coming into it defensive, that they have that sense of humility. And that willingness to work through differences, despite it being difficult to do that. And it is really about that sense of, we are going to be collaborators, even if we don’t have to love each other. We don’t even have to like each other, but we’re going to value one another’s positions and one another long enough to have this conversation. That seems like an important piece. But it’s not, it’s an important piece of the puzzle that to me, it’s like a, what’s the game where you pull up the bar at the bottom and the whole thing falls apart. It’s going to be difficult to resolve differences without that, those psychological processes being right, and the relational processes being right. Even at the society level, we’re still social animals, it’s still very likely many of the same principles apply. But there’s a lot more going on there that I really can’t speak to with confidence.
Q. Is there a science of listening?
There absolutely is a scientific listening, and that is—
So there absolutely is the science of listening. And the science of listening is really about asking questions having to do with how does listening look, when it’s done well? What does high quality listening look like? What does high quality listening do for the listener, what happens internally for the listener, that means that they have listened well, that is a result of having listened well. It’s about how people process information. It’s about how I feel listened to and what that does within me and for me. So part of the science of listening is how the effective listener affects or influences how the effective listener influences the speaker, and helps them to feel listened to, how they would describe that experience, but also, how does that change their behaviors, how does that change their willingness to disclose in the future, to share things in the future. And so the science of listening is really about trying to systematically and robustly understand what listening looks like, what listening feels like, and how that is true for both the listener and the speaker. And I’m sure there’s a sense of listening at this societal level, and I could try to speak to it but with less confidence.
Q. Understanding the science of listening, what are you trying to achieve?
The goal of the science of listening is to rigorously and systematically begin to understand one, what does it look like when we listen well, but that is not an end in itself. So the question is, can we encourage, train or educate people about how to be better listeners. Can we inspire people to be better listeners, can we create the right environments, but also the right psychological space for people to listen well to one another. So in it is the assumption that there’s value in doing that. And the other side of it is, let’s also test that assumption, let’s test our assumption that it is important we invest in listening, because when we listen well to others, we create… When we listen well to others, we create positive change in the world. The other side of the sense of listening is to understand what is the experience of a speaker having that type of support and that type of attention. How far can we stretch the benefits, to encourage positive well-being to create closer and more open and more receptive relationships, to get people to engage in behaviors that are valued and valuable, things that are good for them, things that they want to be doing? How do we motivate and inspire speakers to then follow through with those things they talk about and take their own challenge, make— take on their own challenges and make their own decisions and follow through? So essentially, when, if we think about the other side of the science of listening, we’re thinking about what listening can do to really help people be fully engaged in the conversation, to benefit from the conversation with more self-understanding, with more growth, more awareness, more of a sense of belongingness and intimacy, and the willingness to share more in the future. When I’ve had good listening, I might feel like, wow, this process of self-exploration, this process of sharing myself, that went really well for me that time, I want to do more of that, I want to explore myself more, I want to share more, maybe with the good listener, maybe with other people around me. Those are assumptions that we can be testing, and we are testing and we need to invest in more to really understand what kind of changes we can create, by encouraging listening.
Q. As you peek into the future of this field, what do you think are some of the big challenges and innovations in listening?
In terms of challenges for listening, one of the things that, one of the challenges for studying listening is that listening might look different, and also produce different outcomes, depending on what kind of relationship we’re talking about, what kind of conversation, where people are coming from. So we might actually be looking at listening as something that is a little bit different, depending on what the conversation or what the context is. It might even look different in different cultures and in different countries. And so we have little understanding of, essentially is listening one thing or is listening conveyed in different ways, expressed in different ways, depending on the kind of conversation you’re having or the kind of relationship that you’re in? That’s one challenge for listening. Another challenge is to really systematically understand what is really important and we have reason to believe that it’s important to attend, to understand and to value people, and all of those things need to be there in order for us to be really effective listeners. But it’s very important to understand what are the boundary conditions for this. Are there circumstances where those things don’t work well or aren’t enough. It’s important to understand, is just one of those really driving that effect or do we really need to have all of them together. Is it a, is listening something that is a set of strategies, or is it a holistic set of behaviors that can only come as a package deal. Another thing to understand in terms of listening, and another challenge for listening is essentially, if listening is the foundation for creating positive change. What is the, in what way is listening benefited by other interventions that the listener must— Other interventions that the listener might make. Is there a timeline for listening? Is there the right time for listening in the right time for expressing your opinion, for challenging, for disagreeing? And essentially, where, what is the place of listening in everyday conversations and also in those really meaningful conversations? It is very important that when we do so we also do so rigorously because listening is a very specific set of behaviors and a very specific experience. But it’s easy to confuse with other types of support, it’s very easy to confuse, feeling listened to with receiving a present that you really like that led you to think, hmm, maybe my partner was paying attention when I’d mentioned, you know, a while ago that I wanted this, this thing. So to really think about listening in its own right, not just as one aspect of support, but support in its, in its own— support on its own, or an independent construct is the way I want to say it, like basically it’s important that we give listening attention in its own right, as separate from other ways that we can support others. Because listening might not always behave like other forms of support, it might play a role where support might not be enough. And there might be places where support is actually more important. So we really need to disentangle these things. And you had a second question—
Q. Future innovations and listening?
One of the things that’s really important is to understand really robustly how we can train people to be good listeners, can we actually take someone who’s maybe not as experienced listening, is not as comfortable listening, who doesn’t have the skills or the, even the motivation required. Is it possible to create good listeners to foster that, that way of relating to others? Can we take somebody, teach them how to listen well, and then encourage them and motivate them enough to take those skills into their real life relationships, experiences, to remember to listen to others, even in their daily life? One of those innovations is going to be, what does a really effective training for listening look like. And how does that translate to long term change that people are able to go out and change the way they relate to others and really attend to others? The other thing, the other important innovation for listening is understanding really what drives those effects, the technical way to say but one of the other innovations for listening really has to do with understanding how it works, why it works, what does it change in the speakers and also what happens internally for listeners to understand the psychological mechanisms that are driving these positive benefits for well-being we see or that drive productivity at work. So we need to really understand what goes on for someone when they feel listened to that is so beneficial for them. We can speculate about some, there’s some very legitimate— what’s it called— They’re very legitimate contenders for what drives those listening effects. What does it do to us to be listened to or for us to be listened to that’s so important. But we need rigorous research to study those possible contenders and see what really is happening for us internally.
Q. How do you be a good listener?
For me, listening is about stopping. Stopping those things that I’m thinking about, saying for a second, alright, I’m gonna set aside my own interests or, or concerns, worries, those things that are interrupting my ability to be in the moment. So I make an effort to be in the moment with the person that I’m talking to. I make sure to— I’m trying to think, think of a way to say, but essentially, I take the time to focus not just my attention, but also relax myself and really yield to what’s happening in the here and now. I forget, for a second, those things that I wanted to say to that person, and I allow them to drive the conversation for a short while, say from now, I’m not going to have an agenda. I’m not going to try to share this perspective. But I’m just going to wait and see what I hear, what comes forward. So for me, it does come down to, for me, it comes down to being mindful in the moment and being really, putting myself in a position where I’m interested in the person that I’m, I’m speaking to.
Q. The Templeton World Charity Foundation Award, and its importance to your listening project?
So we are only beginning now to really systematically understand what listening looks like. And so this is a really exciting area where we can start to say, when we listen well, we convey that listening through our actions and through the way that we, that we convey our attention or understanding, and our valuing of others. And this, this project is a first foray into really sitting down and systematically classifying what it looks like to listen well. And it’s very important for us to do so because what we’re hoping to do is to be able to create good listeners, it’s one of the biggest challenges to take somebody in a short time. And help them to learn the skills, learn the values, the ethos of being a good listener, and really transform the way that they converse with others. So our initial goal here is to begin to understand what does that look like, in a way that we can also teach to others. To see, can we teach others these things, and can we do it in a short time. Because a therapist takes years to learn to listen well, and we don’t have yours with everybody, but the more people that we can encourage to be good listeners and give the tools of listening to, the more that we can hopefully encourage positive change in the world. That classification, that ability to understand what listening looks like and how we can train people to be good listeners, also then allows us to do a lot more research to understand what are the effects of listening. How does a good listener influence others because we can create environments where people are listening, and then test how those environments affect speakers, in a whole host of contexts when people agree or they disagree. And in relationships for example, we can imagine listening training with parents, we can imagine listening training with teachers, there are a lot of opportunities for where we can take this work.
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