Transcript of journalist and senior media executive Richard Sergay's interview with Andrew Serazin for the “Stories of Impact” series.

Watch the video version of the interview.
 
RS =  Richard Sergay (interviewer)
AS =  Andrew Serazin (interviewee)

AS: I’m Andrew Serazin, President of the Templeton World Charity Foundation.

RS: The mission of the foundation.

AS: The mission of the Templeton World Charity Foundation is to be a global catalyst for the big questions of purpose, meaning, and truth. 

RS: Is there a worldview?

AS: I think an interesting way to approach that specific question is, what is our view of history, well, and more appropriately, what was Sir John's view of history, and of the world. And I think for a moment we could talk about Sir John himself and his own experience. So here we have a man who was born in 1915 in Winchester, Tennessee, and at that time it was a community that was still really struggling with the history and experience of the American Civil War. You know, as a young person living with what happened in WWI, the mechanization of war, chemical warfare, and then the Great Depression hits, that affected him personally and his family. Followed thereafter by WWII and the Cold War. And, yet, through all of that he was you know, tragedy was known to him personally in his life as well. And yet through all of that there's this abiding sense of optimism. And it's very interesting to dwell on that for a moment, because it's that fundamental sense of optimism and progress that comes into focus when he writes later, in many of his writings, that now is the time, now is the blossoming time of the creation of man. and so similarly he actually thinks of progress as this something which is not just confined to material progress. So he, you know, threw out that lifespan finds tremendous progress in medicine and commerce, in his own investment experience, investing internationally. It's that optimism, that he locates actually when he says, not in material progress actually, that the driving force in his mind behind progress that he's seen and that will continue to occur is what he calls an increasing attention to matters of the spirit. And so, when you ask about the world view it's in part related to this view of history, of this big form of progress. this idea that we can be better, not just economically, not just in terms of health, but we can be better people in all of the ways in which we, which we find ourselves so in our relationships. in the way in which we are intentional about life, the ways in which we can achieve our own ambitions and also the ways in which we treat each other. So, the worldview is one of tremendous optimism, and that optimism really knows no bounds. So, it's also the world view that we're actually starting from a relatively humble position. So, the word humility is very important to Sir John, it's important to the Templeton World Charity Foundation. That it is although we see progress around us and we see tremendous advances in knowledge, in welfare, we have hope for ever greater progress, ever greater advancements. And what will be the fuel for that actually, according to our world view here at the Templeton World Charity Foundation, is the matter of the spirit.

RS: Why is being humble important?

AS: It's interesting, the word humility you know, it in one context actually, can mean something that's negative. So humiliation is generally perceived as a negative thing. And I think the reason he keyed in on humility and being humble really has to do with an approach towards information. So, you know, when he was an investor and was invested in a stock in a country and he saw and he was emotionally connected to his position, right. and you know, his hope for his firm and his family that requires a certain humility in terms of admitting that you're wrong and selling that position. And similarly, there's such a tremendous admiration for what science provides, actually. So science as an enterprise is an incredibly humble, or can be incredibly humble, enterprise. There's a confrontation with data that requires a synthesis that often means within the course of one career or even in the course of one experiment, that one's pre-- suppositions, need to be discarded in the face of new data. And that is humility. and that is why you know at the Templeton World Charity Foundation, we stress tremendous rigor and tremendous objectivity in the projects that we seek to fund because we, this relates back to this world view of just really being at the beginning of things, right, we-- the beginning of a great and you know, a future which has so much potential. And so if you look at how progress occurs generally that requires a great sense of respect for new information, and a willingness to admit that your presuppositions might need to be readjusted and in fact actually, that's the only way that progress can occur.

RS: The motto, how little we know, how eager to learn.

AS: How little we know, how eager to learn. So, I think that encapsulates this sense of smallness actually in our own lives, and that's what it means to me, and that, you know this just sense of wonder about what is out there, what is out there for me personally, what my potential can be, but what is out there for all of us. and so you know, one of the images that I think about when thinking about this motto of how little we know, how eager to learn and, is that a wave on the ocean, and that this wave is part of such a broader fabric of creation, a broader constellation of, knowledge, of you know, such a big reality that's out there, and from that position of being the wave on the ocean, it's actually very difficult to see these things. Another good example from an area that's near and dear to my work personally is what we're learning about specifically what we're learning about how bacteria are almost 9/10 of the cells in your body, in a person's body. So I often think about how little we know, how eager to learn from the perspective of being the bacterium, you know, and there's this great big, sort of trillions of other creatures and other sort of other possibilities that are out there. And so, you know, it's from a rel-- the point is that, the motto for me encapsulates this great sense of, of possibilities and a great sense of wonder that can only come from, from seeking knowledge, seeking new information. Reaching out beyond the differences that we find in our lives. to other people who may have different experiences, and it's through learning and accompanying others that actually we are ultimately fulfilled. And so you know I think that there's this great tendency, certainly from, from foundations actually, to think they know everything. You know, that there's that you know, we sit here in great office buildings and we have one of the best jobs in the world that I can think of, which is to basically talk to other people about their dreams and resource them to pursue those dreams. And so, there's a great spiritual danger in that actually, and I think Sir John knew that. especially when we think about these very tough issues of God, and of what science can tell us about realities which we can only just glimpse. And there's a you know, there's lots of hubris that we might find, that we might bring into this both as a mission of the organization but also personally. And so to avoid that basic spiritual danger, that's you know that that's what, it's a good reminder that you know, that we are small in, certainly personally, but even as an organization, we're small in comparison to what lies out there.

RS: Core values

AS: I think you know one of the things that we're, several values come to mind. One is embracing risk. So, being adventurous in the ways in which we fund work, risk being something that clearly we need to manage but as a philanthropy we have a freedom that almost no other organization in the world enjoys. And so, I believe it's our duty to explore possibilities. Whether that's working with a variety of institutions, with a variety of individuals in various countries around the world. But, you know, we have this great liberty to be adventurous. And be bold, and take risks where appropriate. So, embracing that, making that part of what we communicate, not through our processes and through the way we speak and through the objectives that we set as an organization. To always seek more in terms of the impact that we can have, so clearly you know, being adventurous, and through, through the spirit of exploration that we embrace risk in a way that we're not safe, or that we don't try and always do the safe thing. The thing that's, we can easily grasp, but continue to reach, reach beyond that. So, that's one value, another value is embracing difference, actually. So, we talked about humility, and I think where we find ourselves today with a planet that is full of just tremendous opportunities in countries around the world. Some call this the growing cognitive surplus that we have an upwelling of, of people and ideas, out of poverty, that you know so my background is in, in public health and global health. And science related to innovation and global health and the results there are just tremendous. And in terms of numbers of deaths averted every year, and simultaneously we have, we have an ever-growing number of people who are educated. So by 2030, there'll be double the number of college graduates that exist today. So it's double the number of engineers, doctors, thinkers, and so, not all of those people look like grantees that we've had in the past or partners that we've worked with in the past, and they'll speak very different languages. And so from what we're used to, and so we need to seek out that difference because it is through the difference that we can examine that discoveries are actually made. and through that dialogue with different ideas and different peoples, you know that breakthroughs happen.

RS: The word world is in the foundation name. 

AS: I think of our foundation as the best foundation in the cosmos, so world actually, world in its old, English definition, does denote not just the earth but the entirety of, of the universe actually, the concept of the universe really didn't exist at that time and so the world meant everything. and so there's some sense that actually, the issues that we work on, that the cultures we try to reach certainly expand around this planet, and around all of the intelligent life on this planet, but you know, again a great freedom and liberty to seek ever-greater potential around you know, around what we know, outside of this, this planet. So, but I guess to get, to get back to your specific question about the Templeton World Charity Foundation, and I think we should also come back to the word charity there, for a minute, too, because that's an interesting concept as well. But you know, but clearly, that you know, one of the reasons we find ourselves in the Bahamas as an organization, Sir John lived of course in the Bahamas, starting in 1965 and became a British citizen at that time. But, you know, that's a strategic advantage in terms of fulfilling a global ambition, and so many of the programs that we're seeking to run now and in the future we're trying to make as open as possible, lowering the barrier to entry. Overcome the challenges we have in terms of reaching thinkers who have the very best ideas. Those are the sorts of things that we're working on very seriously right now. in order to fulfill a global mandate. 

RS: Charity?

AS: So the word charity sounds very antiquated, sounds charity as if it is something that is just the giving of alms, you know, or giving of food and shelter. And it's interesting that it's, that's the modern connotation of, of that word. Of course in its roots, charity actually is a virtue, it's a form of, of companionship with other people, and so it's a form of love of other people, and there's this great Jesuit phrase actually, that I think about when I think about charity which has to do with accompanying others in their journey. And so although charity can mean giving of material goods and shelter to those who need it, I think what it means in our name as the Templeton World Charity Foundation, it's a form of love for others. And it's a deep form of love, it's not just about giving food and shelter and and-- things to people. But it's addressing the most basic needs of a person. And providing practical tools and practical knowledge for, for people. So, and those all relate to those questions of who, who am I, how am I to treat others, what is my story in this grand narrative of this planet and this universe and what's my own small narrative, which is equally as, as grand as important-- and as important. So, it's an expansive form of love I think, when we think about that word and I actually think it's really important for philanthropies in general, to maybe rediscover those roots of the word charity. Because so much philanthropy can be mechanistic, so seeing people in terms of, of deaths averted or wages increased or you know, a box to be ticked. And so that's something that we actively are, supplementing and trying to rediscover this basic impulse of philanthropy. But that's to address the whole person, as a person who feels and thinks and dreams as opposed to simply somebody who is a mouth to feed.

RS: Human story behind these issues...

AS: I'll say it this way, so... sitting inside an organization whose role it is to fund others, it's often easy to abstract data and metrics, metrics of success you know, whether that's individuals reached through programs or articles published and we condense that into a nice, neat number. But I actually think that the more important and more challenging way of thinking about the impact of an organization, is through the human story that that is at the heart of every project, is at the heart of every grant. And the number of lives touched by that, whether that's the recipient of funds, the project director or the scientist who's working in the laboratory, or the person who is reached on the street, through, through such an effort. So, whether it's a child in a township in South Africa, or a distinguished scientist in Cambridge, or a religious community in New Orleans. That impact to me is the cumulative of all of those stories, all of those lives, all of those perspectives, that really provide the best picture of what we have done and what we can do as an organization.

RS: Deep curiosity on Sir John's part...

AS: Absolutely. So, so th-- of course it starts with the question why, right, and that's so, that's the ultimate human question actually, is, is why. And I have young children and I know as a parent how difficult it is when my toddler asks well why is that, that's a difficult question. Why, why is that tree the way it is, why does that leaf fall, why is the sky blue. why do we why do we sit down together for meals, and as a family. Those are often those most difficult questions, but they're also the most human questions. And that's the seed of all curiosity I think, is asking the question why. And it's not just Sir John's curiosity I think it's a gift, the foundation in a sense is a gift, for everyone, to ask and have the freedom and the courage to ask why, even though that may give difficult answers or answers which don't make sense. [09:29:04.20] and so there's of course that's at the heart in many cases of the motivation behind much of scientific inquiry, why do the planets move in a certain fashion, why do we have species which look similarly you know, why why does evolution produce such wondrous differences. so all of those “why” questions you know that's our space. And that's and it's not just the things that, that at the end of the 20th century that were the most interesting questions, it was looking forward many hundreds of years to provide the space, the freedom, to continue to ask those questions, when, when much of the world is really just concerned with how, how do we make a driverless car. How do we increase wages? How do we decrease inequality? And all of those questions are great questions, all of those things are essential to move us forward. But they, it's my belief that all of those questions start with basic curiosity, that can only be best addressed by asking why. 

RS: Character and virtue, deep love, companionship, forgiving, etc... Sir John... and how they translate into work that you do.

AS: So, those virtues generally relate to, they're relational attributes for the most part, or they're intellectual attributes, a curiosity and creativity being intellectual attributes. But they're also, many of those words are relational attributes, and so the reason I'm so excited about our work on character development is that, from the perspective of the development of societies and the development of people around the world, that's the frontier clearly. The capacity to generate products, goods and services, food, medicines and you know, basic healthcare. you know, that we're doing really a fantastic job. As a global human community, at breaking down those barriers and increasing prosperity related to those material dimensions. But, the frontier for all of that I think is, comes back to how we treat each other, how we treat ourselves, and that's the heart of character, really. are these habits which are built up and learned in communities, in schools, in churches, with friends, with parents. That you know, that is at the heart of what is a good life, and what is the right action to take in any situation. And so, there's almost no human problem that also couldn't be addressed in part by you know, by increasing things like gratitude, or forgiveness, or curiosity. Or thrift and you know, now these are also English words and, and mainly Anglo-Saxon terminology, coming out of sort of a European tradition. But they're, as we're getting into this work we're finding so much more opportunity and space around the world that these fundamental truths of forgiveness and of gratitude and humility, we find in cultures all over the world. And so, again, from this perspective, seeing what's really out there, there's this tremendous social infrastructure, cultural knowledge related to the cultivation of character, that's really just waiting to be discovered, and it's so important for, for all the other aspects of human development, whether that's economic development and honesty and corruption. Whether that's you know child protection and how we, how one heals communities after the experience of tragedy. That, at its root all of those things can benefit from the cultivation and promotion of relational virtues or intellectual virtues. 

RS: Discovery of virtue and character helps in the real world...

AS: To think about this in investment terms, this is one of the most undervalued, bargain investments one can make in terms of future prosperity.

RS: Because...

AS: Well, because everything requires humans... everything which I'll give you an example from the opposite side, which is to say that everything can be solved through a widget or a device or a technology. So a really great example is in the area of malaria bed nets. And my experience working in Kenya with trying to distribute bed nets. So, bed nets reduce malaria transmission by 30%, they're very effective when treated with insecticide. But and they can be made very cheaply and distributed to families and that's you know, there are hundreds of millions of bed nets now, circulating in sub-Saharan Africa, but when this first got started, you know, a group went and trained families on how to use these bed nets, and worked with them and sort of gave them this bed net and to sleep under, and six months goes by and they come back later and either people are using them as fishing nets, or have made bridal cloth out of them, because actually you know, cloth being very expensive, for weddings, this was a high-quality material that was then repurposed. And so, the point of that story is that tools and technologies and supplies can only go so far and that all requires success in almost any endeavor, requires you know, basic human cooperation, and respect, and action, and all of those things are enabled by character.

RS: The foundation's leadership...

AS: Well, so I think it's very easy to signal what we don't do. So if I were to graph the, you know, what the top hundred philanthropies in the world, what they do, what their identity is, those, they would fall into, probably five different buckets. Poverty alleviation, environmental change, medical research, and so forth. And, we don't do any of that for its own sake. We have a broader-- we have a different mission, and it relates to the fulfillment of meaning and purpose and truth in people's lives. And so I think we have a great opportunity to bring the tools of innovation, the tools of science, the tools of entrepreneurship, the things which have been very successful in those other areas of philanthropy. adventuresome research. The love of new data. The requirement to communicate effectively. All of these things have been very effective at raising the profile for example of environmental change. And making that just a part of the canonical form of philanthropy. And so, being a person who is an entrepreneur, and has built successful businesses related to application of technology, I think our great opportunity to be a leader is to bring those two things together. What Sir John talked about in terms of the matters of the spirit, and these big why questions, but applying techniques that have been so successful in every other area of, of life. And of progress. and so I think that's what distinguishes TWCF specifically, I think it's what can distinguish all of the work that Templeton Foundation supports.

RS: How do you choose projects?

AS: So, at the Templeton World Charity Foundation, we funded over the past five years, something like 130 projects in 30 countries. And so right now we're really trying to focus on a subset of key priorities. and those priorities are things like the Diverse Intelligences initiative, the Big Questions in Classrooms, the Power of Information and Internationalizing Christians in Science. So those are four thematic priorities that in the future you know, will represent the vast majority of our funding. So we're trying to be strategic and focus on core priorities and that's I think essential to maintain a sense of rigor and focus and energy related to each of these areas. The space that we could work in is tremendous and it's vast. And we need to pick the specific spaces where we think we can make a difference. And a great example of that is in diverse intelligences, where there's a very clear role for the foundation to just expand what we mean by intelligence. Intelligence has often meant and continues to mean problem-solving, optimization of you know, to find a solution. But yet we know from our own experience that whether socially or morally, that the capacities we have that we deem are important about our life, sort of go way beyond arithmetic, and computation and problem-solving. So, the opportunity for us to change the narrative to locate ourselves in a constellation of intelligences, to find out what kind of intelligence is out there, is to bring innovations to that space, to think about problems in ways that no one else is thinking about. You know, that's, that's the right mix of characteristics which make TWCF a unique funder. So, you know, so when we think about developing these priorities, thematic areas, those are the sorts of things, you know, can we make a difference, are we unique, is there can we in some sense ride on top of change and resources which are being devoted to an area already. And sort of surf that. But move, move the discussion in a little bit of, in a different direction than it otherwise might go and again, intelligence is a great example of that, where the popular medium and much of the sort of academic work that goes on thinks of intelligence in very narrow terms, and we say hey, wait a second, there's this bigger world that's out there, let's look in the kinds of intelligence that bees have, or that primates have, or that dogs have. And for the kinds of intelligence that machines enable us to pursue. And so that's the sort of right mix of things when we think about what's strategic for us and where we can make a difference. 

RS: How important is impact?

AS: So, impact is everything at the end of the day. With one big caveat that actually, I think you can overestimate what you can do in one year and underestimate what you can do in ten years. So, a great example from that is, I started as a nineteen-year-old, went to West Africa working on the evolution of mosquitoes in West Africa. Why certain mosquitoes are incredibly, exquisitely attuned to find people, over long distances, and, and what that creates in terms of malaria burden. And at that time, I was pretty much alone as an undergraduate studying these things. I mean, it was not the sexiest discipline to study. I remember actually bringing some DNA for mosquitoes back through customs, in 2000 and I had a backpack full of DNA. And I was going through security and I had my papers and I sort of gave those papers to the security guard at the airport and he just looked at me like what on Earth is this person doing. You know, and the reason I tell that story is that at that time, that was not seen to be an important thing. And fast forward ten years, fast forward well a little over that, fast forward fifteen years and we find that a conversation I had with the dean of Harvard School of Public Health and she told me that, that public health is the most popular course now for, for Harvard undergraduates. That's impact. That cannot be compressed into numerical figures, despite you know, that doesn't tell the story effectively. But it's that cultural change that occurs over, that can occur over a ten-year period. That's impact to me. Because it changes the way people see themselves and see-- and changes the way that society values and what people value. Particularly young people. Because that's a real focus for TWCF. If we can inspire early stage thinkers, innovators, problem-solvers, that will affect them for the rest of their lives. And so, my biggest hope for the foundation in terms of impact is to move from a space where people think these “why” questions, big questions of meaning, purpose, and truth, they're too important to keep inside the academy. They're too important to keep locked within esoteric coursework, or esoteric journals; it's more than just interesting to sit around and sort of naval gaze. It's actually important, it's important for our future, it's important for almost every other aspect of life that we can think about. So that's what would be impact to me, in ten years, that we inspire a new generation of thinkers, who deem our work to be important and not just interesting.

RS: How does the foundation define success?

AS: So, we can look at success on an individual grant basis, and that's clearly something that, that is that we track, and we evaluate. but I think you're asking a bigger question about what the success looked like, and so I think success for the foundation, you know, does relate to the discussion about impact for the foundation, but success is, is is production of real knowledge, that people can use, and that inspires them to change their own lives, that's success. That, at the end of the day that has to be success, there has to be some kind of change in people that we seek and so, you know, we do, we do work ranging from the very small, so how is it that quantum mechanics is such a strange environment, how is it, the quantum mechanics that, that at its very basis, the core of our physical universe is our probabilities are basically clouds of what-if statements. What if-- you know, and yet, out of that emerges our experience. That's not just an interesting question, that's an important question. We also work at the very largest scales so, so what is the future of, of our species, what's the future of our solar system, are there habitable planets in our vicinity is there intelligent life outside our solar system, how do we recognize it if that were the case, those are important questions, not just interesting questions and so and to inspire people to devote their lives to answering those questions ultimately is, is success.

RS: Failure?

AS: Yeah, failure is something that every scientist is accustomed to. Every entrepreneur is accustomed to. I fail personally in many, many experiments. that I was, that I was pursuing. And it was the rare event that success was, you know, was had. I must have sought funding for, for my company, hundreds of conversations, hundreds of pitches, hundreds of moments of me opening myself up to being vulnerable to somebody else. And 99% of those conversations ended in a no. (LAUGH) In failure, right. So failure has to be ok, failure actually is, is scary, professionally, for organizations and for people who are used to succeeding. you know, but often you learn more from failures than you do from successes. So, when we think about being adventurous and about embracing risk and about embracing uncertainty and about exploring concepts which no one else can explore. Those sorts of things, if we're doing our job correctly, will mean, therefore, that failure is something that happens. And that it is not a personal failure or a professional failure, it is part of a big experiment of trial and error, and that is the only way we can, we can succeed, so if you imagine what it takes to develop a new medicine, you know, generally it takes probably a hundred early clinical trials to end up with one medicine that's marketed. if you know, if you think about what, how many development cycles it requires to produce software which is really good and robust. Thousands of development cycles. So, why isn't that the case. In what we're doing. and you know, so why isn't it the case that we give ourselves the freedom and the license to confront those fears, of failure, professional failure and personal failure. And you know, to make sure that, because a project that we've, we've funded and worked on didn't meet its goals, that doesn't mean we wouldn't do it again, and again, and again, until it works.

RS: Journey of exploration around science and religion.

AS: Both science and faith are about a confrontation with the unknown. When one forms a hypothesis or theory to test, that's about being at the boundary between what we know and what's unknown. And the same for, the same is true for faith, actually. The same for religion is that we start from this perspective of being limited in our capacities and our knowledge, we can learn more of course, but there's this sense of, of something greater than ourselves, that is bigger. And we cannot observe directly. So that's huge, that's one of the biggest unknowns that we can imagine, you know. So, my perspective and I think Sir John's perspective was one that, that the starting point for both science and faith are actually the same. And actually it can be a collaborative relationship. So great I think the way to think about this is it's more of a personal, science and faith is more of a personal orientation, as opposed to a societal definition. So again, if we go back in history, the words science and religion in the middle-- medieval period actually meant personal orientation. Science had to do with a personal orientation for seeking knowledge. Religion had to do with a personal orientation, towards betterment and understanding and moral fortitude. It was only later that they came to mean the outward manifestations of this personal orientation. That being the scientific enterprise, and the scientific method. Or religion as a set of orthodoxies that denote an in-group and an out-group. And I think so, the reason we're interested in science and religion, isn't actually because we're interested in the formal boundaries between scientific enterprise and religious enterprise, but I think the great bac-- basic impulse of, is the same. And it's just two different ways of managing that and exploring that basic impulse. And so, for myself as a scientist and for many scientists that I know, th-- the work is devoted to seeking reality, seeking truth, and however in whatever small way that we can do experiments, to shed just a little bit more light in an area of unknown, I think that's very congruous with, with religious practice. Especially religious practice which is humble and which is open-minded and ultimately is tentative, actually. That you know, that in some sense, faith is the greatest hypothesis that we can imagine, and I think Sir John recognized that one reason why you might think that religions could be obsolete or out of touch with the development of the modern world and the development of scientific infrastructure, had to do fundamentally with this lack of humility, with this lack of open-mindedness, and with this lack of, of recognizing the need to change and the need to innovate.

RS: Does the foundation take a point of view on this?

AS: Well, I think so. I think the point of view that the foundation has had and I think the point of view that Sir John held was that, that science and religion are not necessarily at odds. There's no fundamental reason that science and religion should be at odds. But of course, in everyday practice we find instances where there is conflict. And actually those are important areas to drill down on, so a great example is the incorporation of evolutionary theory with Christian belief. And it's, of course, a very important subject, particularly in the United States. And also a really great success story of late. Recent Gallup polls show that there's a rapid increase in the number of Christians who do not find evolutionary thinking and evolutionary theory in conflict with their religious beliefs. That's not always been the case. But that's an important sort of case study for the foundation because it's an example of how progress can happen, how you change institutions, how you change communities, and it's not easy. There's a lot of detractors on both sides of that issue, but there's a growing middle group which does not, which I think comports with the way in which Sir John thought about religion and science, and that is that it's not necessarily in conflict. And there are many scientists, Francis Collins, head of the NIH for example, who are very public figures, who describe the ways in which their faith enables their scientific inquiry and curiosity. 

RS: Managing extreme technological risk, what's at stake?

AS: I think the importance of thinking about our long-term prospects as a species is an-- clearly an important project. It's a deep project actually in the sense that I think it's obvious that human beings are special creatures, and a world filled with human beings, a universe filled with humanity is preferable than the alternative. So, in some sense it's actually one of the most important societal issues that you can think about. And existential risk can come in many forms. Existential risk can be thought of as this binary choice between survival-- life and death. but there's also a more sinister form of existential risk which has to do with the ways technology changes us. And can change us. And whether that's artificial intelligence technology, whether that's advances in genetic engineering technology, which is an amazing field every week there are tremendous discoveries that just as a scientist you sit back and say, wow. For example, read a report that it is now possible to change the color of, and the pattern of butterfly wings through very, very simple yet powerful genetic engineering techniques. That in a matter of weeks or months, would have taken, two years ago would have taken years to do. and so, imagine all of the new forms of beauty in nature that we could find by application of that technique. It just causes you to sit back and say wow. Ok, you know so, so but, similarly with environmental change, which really is about how human beings exist on this planet, obviously with other species and ourselves, for the long-term. The sinister form of, or the sort of more I guess insidious form of technological risk is that by virtue of creating machines, habitats you know, applying advances in genetic engineering, that we change ourselves beyond recognition. And we don't realize what we've lost. and so in one sense it's jumping for joy with this just amazing ingenuity and creativity, and progress that we see in science and technology. But, it's also asking, let's, you know the question about being intentional about the future that we want, and so when we think about artificial intelligence technology, what safeguards do we need, what do we need AI systems to be intelligible to us, or auditable to us. do we, how do we design those systems so that it enhances our creativity. How do we design those systems to enhance a sense of purpose? We believe that's possible, but it's probably not possible unless there's really serious attention that's focused on managing that and being intentional about those developments as opposed to letting other forces unmitigated take us where the future leads.

RS: Ethical and moral implications?

AS: It has to be, you know, those go hand in hand, if we change the way in which human beings treat each other, gather information, ways in which human beings can live with each other, ultimately that's an ethical or moral question. You know, what is, what is my appropriate response to this situation, what is my obligation to another person. Genetic engineering, artificial intelligence and environmental science are all about those things. So, at the end of the day, all of those things will impact how human beings relate to each other, how we conceive of ourselves, so, you know, so it's impossible not to make those moral and ethical, and I would argue spiritual matters. 

RS: The exploration of risk and conclusions, what does the foundation hope to achieve?

AS: Yeah, I think I think the rationale for the project and the interest in the project helps us to think about the long-term. So future mindedness is an important attribute for individuals, it's an important dimension that we start thinking about the long-term, there's so much pressure, whether it's the market cycles or election cycles, to you know, so much pressure to think in increasingly short-term actually relates in some sense to the Iroquois Principle of the Seven Generations, that any decision that was taken by the Iroquois Council needed to anticipate its effect not for its generation but for seven generations into the future. So you could think about this looking at technological risk as a modern-day version of that, which just says let's think about the possibilities of the long-term. And so, to make people aware that there is a long-term, there, that we hope that there's a long-term, and in order to maximize the chance that there is, you need to start work now.

RS: Is it your hope that you explore possibilities of what technology can bring us in a much broader way than it has before?

AS: I think it's, the hope and expectation is that more people are aware and more leaders are aware of the risks to our long-term by choice-- of choices we make today. So, lots of the work on existential risk relates to dialogue with policymakers, dialogue with thought leaders, to put this issue on their radar, that there is a very real possibility that by taking actions today we can avoid future crises, which would bring about our extinction.

RS: South Africa, character and virtue, etc.

AS: It does, I think Ubuntu has meant, can mean, does mean, Ubuntu does mean, I exist because of you. Which in itself is a profound statement actually, It's this relational attribute that is at the heart of our own human existence. So, I exist because of you it's not a concept actually that has a basis in European or American thought, it is indigenous to Southern Africa. And in that sense, I think it's a beautiful example of us embracing a difference in the world and finding this fantastic manifestation of character in a context that is very different from America or the Bahamas, or Europe. And so that's, I think it's a great example of this indigenous knowledge, local knowledge, that identifies and seeks to cultivate a fundamental truth, that we could all benefit from. So, I exist because of you, that project particularly working with young South African children and training then to tell their own story, to find Ubuntu around them, one of the great quotes from that is the young now radio journalist said that after working at this, on this project, that once you start seeing Ubuntu, you can't unsee it. Right, so it was, it changed her perspective about what she saw in her community and she had this great story about a woman who, the selflessness of this woman, in a very poor township, that she was always the person who gave of herself to support her, her community. And this young radio journalist saw that and when she saw that in her, she couldn't not see it elsewhere. And so, that's what, that's what you know, that's what we hope for, for a broader focus on character around the world to find these local indigenous forms of character. And then, thereby, educate the world about those things.

RS: What to learn from natural disasters that can also have a manmade impact?

AS: Well, all natural disasters have an impact on humanity. and so I think the big question here is two-fold, one: why and how do we conceive of a world full of tragedy and why is tragedy part, why are we in an imperfect world, why is, why do, why does tragedy occur in our lives, why do disasters occur. and how are we to think about that in general terms. I think the other part of the importance of this project looks at faith communities, religious communities as resources for people. As resources for change as support systems for resilience. It's not often the case that you find in the general media or in the general discourse of examples of how faith communities are essential parts of providing support and resilience and meaning to people's lives in the face of tragedy. But that is of course what churches and synagogues and mosques do, in large parts. The pastoral care that they provide, it's the sense of community, it's the togetherness that churches can provide for people. So, we hope that by focusing on this very compelling and you know, this very important tragedy that occurred, natural disaster that occurred around the time of Hurricane Katrina, and the response to, of faith communities there, that, for those people, that it wasn't the government, it wasn't private enterprise, it wasn't other organizations that led the through that, and allowed them to persist and have hope and have confidence in their own future. It was their churches that ultimately gave them meaning and hope and that they were resources for them, and support for them. In the face of terrible tragedy. 

RS: Cohesion in faith-based communities coming together in natural disasters to lift up the community.

AS: That's right, you know, as an institution, a human community that churches and other faith communities are essential part of the fabric of, of navigating life. In fact, it's much of, really that's the case in much of the world. And our hope is that by learning about how that works, how that happens, what are the best practices, is there knowledge that we can generalize from that specific case, that can be disseminated to other such faith communities, and they can be responsive to that data, right? So it's the idea that adapting, innovating based on new information, so that churches can fulfill a core capacity and a core aspiration that they themselves hold, which is to be, to be a community and to be a body that, of people, who support each other, in whatever circumstances they find themselves. So, that's a very specific example of, and our hope here is that, can we identify factors which allowed some communities to flourish under those circumstances and, is that a form of innovation. That we can learn from generally. 

RS: Student perceptions... Why is that important?

AS: So, human beings are, people are born interested in the world around them, interested in others, interested in asking questions. And the reason why this effort on big questions in the classroom under which this grant sits, the reason that's important is because we hope that schools and curricula and teachers will be better equipped to encourage the natural curiosity encourage why questions, as opposed to shutting them down to say, you know, this is a science class, you can't ask me that question which sort of sounds like a religion question or a question about our purpose and meaning and ultimate, you know, ultimate questions. You know, it's the adults which seem to be uncomfortable with those questions, whereas children are naturally curious, and they don't see the boundaries that exist. And so you know, of course another reason that's important is because the type of knowledge, the type of information that we get in life, increasingly is fragmented. Is devoid of any kind of factual authority, or at least it's delinked from factual authority. So it's difficult to know what information to trust, as anybody knows today. How do I know whether I can believe this report? How do I know that this concern that I'm reading about or viewing is a real concern? Is this some sort of manipulation of, you know, that has been practiced by the purveyor of that information. And I think our work in the big questions in classrooms, helps to give students the basis for identifying evidence, what is evidence, how to find evidence, whether that's testimonial evidence, experimental evidence, observation with their own eyes. and place that in context. And put that together, ultimately you know, any issue, any question, any concern that you know, any decision that is required of a person, needs to integrate information and find a basis for action, so, so, isn't that a skill we should encourage in our school system. and so the approach that this project is taking, seeks to diminish the boundaries between subjects and just focus on questions that students might have, and draw upon evidence, draw upon knowledge from various disciplines to form an answer, and to find out what our authoritative sources in each case, to weigh them, to see where there's disagreement and conflict, and ultimately to make up their own mind.

RS: Multi-disciplinary approach. 

AS: That's right, so it's one way of thinking about this is how, how knowledge works. Or knowledge about knowledge. So, we're very good at teaching individual skills, you know, calculus, trigonometry, American history, European history, facts. But how do we go from knowledge to wisdom, how do we go from data to knowledge, and so you go from knowledge to wisdom by putting things together, and on-balance making a decision or a judgment about something. So this project is not just multidisciplinary, in the sense that it's looking at a specific issue at the intersection between geography and chemistry. You know. But it's looking at the totality of knowledge, and putting that together in a way that makes sense. So no one when you walk into a school, no one sort of gives you a map to say well, you know, chemistry is about molecules, psychology is about the mind, history is about what people do, math is about numbers, you come to learn that. But no one says, no one teaches you, or it's not practiced or encouraged to put all that together. So, schools are very good at deconstructing things into specific subject matters, what we're talking about here is how do you reconstruct those to make meaning in your own life. 

RS: AEI project, the big question, why important?

AS: So the program on human flourishing at the American Enterprise Institute seeks to get the heart of why we have an economy. So why do we have an economy. Well, we have an economy you might ask an economist, and they would say well, you know, the free market economy, the free enterprise system, efficiently distributes resources you know, products and services and consumers and producers, it's an efficient allocation system. And that's true. But let's ask why we have an economy, what it does for us, what is it good for, and that's what the program on human flourishing is really about. And it's, and the reason it's important, is because at the heart of and the basis of an economy are people. And people are the producers and they are the consumers. but people also need to find meaning in their own lives, and particularly you know, skills that provide meaning in people's lives. So, this very, very important work that has been done under that program, to specifically look at the issue of work and how work can provide meaning in people’s lives, and what are structural barriers for Americans in seeking work. are there government policies which are actually however well-meaning. Are those policies discouraging work, and creating perverse incentives, in the seeking of work and the building of skill and the building of a resume and the building of a life are there other structural factors related to education, particularly early childhood education, where some, some in America are being left out. and so are not given the opportunity to participate in an economy which is the effect of laws about incarceration, and are those members of American society who have paid their dues, based on their actions, through prison. making sure those people are given a chance to participate in an economy. Which not only efficiently distributes resources and produces material goods, but also provides a sense of meaning in a person's life. 

RS: Analyzing physics and cosmology of events...

AS: So the big question of that project is a great example of where physics and philosophy meet. And the physics of events is basically, how do you define an event. We know from quantum mechanics that objects at its-- at their fundamental basis can exist as clouds of probabilities. And then yet when we observe those probabilities, it collapses to a single moment and something happens. In fact, actually, by the understanding of quantum mechanics and modern physics, our observations of a physical system actually changes that system. Well, that's strange. you're telling me that when I look at this glass of water, that I changed the water by my observation, that's strange you know. So that, that's very counterintuitive, that is something that is at this boundary of the unknown and known, and some of the best scientific questions can, can start out with something that's totally speculative, that there's no experimental way of proving this. of proving a conjecture. And so, that project, I see that project as looking out at this expanse of a strange curiosity, that is a natural extension of physics, and we have yet to really figure out how that works. And reality is a lot stranger than we thought it was. And so we must be humble in the face of that new information, and so this project is just about trying to explore that in all of its dimensions, from a philosophical perspective, from a mathematical perspective, from a physical sciences perspective.

RS: New Golden Age of discovery...

AS: So, the new golden age of discovery means to me, that at the heart of the scientific enterprise is the, is asking the question, why, that science is very good at probing the unknown, and that's a thrilling thing. That's a joyful thing. That's not something that is and the best scientists that you speak to, you can't help but be giddy at the way that they see something that no one else is seeing, and you palpably can sense that. And to some extent, science gives us technology or technology sometimes gives us new ways of asking scientific questions, which is sometimes more often the case, but there's this sort of collaboration between science and technology, and there's a mistake that's sometimes made, that science only gives us you know, the best use of science is to give us new things. New capacities, new ways of producing something. So give us new utility, in some way or another. And so, but there's another way of thinking about science which is simply for its role in pushing back the boundary between the known and unknown. And the profound, profundity of that, the ways in which science is, and discoveries cause us, you know, in when we confront them, when we say wow, you know. Look at this supernova, look at this data about speciation, in evolutionary history. Look at the information we have about all of these human ancestors. We have about a half-a-dozen species that have been discovered, that have been very, very close to humans that now we're the only species which is left. But that is, that discovery in and of itself causes us to reflect on our own story, personally, and our own relation to this grand story of, of what we know and what is knowable. So, to some extent, the golden age of discovery has to do with bringing this wonder, sense of wonder, awe and joy, back into science. Because that's what it's about. Under every, underneath every scientist, it's a little kid, with a chemistry set, or a beetle, or a magnifying glass. And the best scientists today still are those little kids. because they've built their life around that, and so it's recapturing that sort of new golden age of discovery for an individual, and then also making sure that we don't lose track of these profound questions that science can, can pose. Irrespective of the fact that we might, you know, get a new iPhone out of it. (LAUGH)

RS: Can science answer or will answer every question?

AS: Well, I think that's an --- well, so, will science answer or can answer...

AS: I think you know, the scientific method such as it is, I mean the scientific method means a lot of different things, but it's basically posing a question sometimes, and gathering evidence through a variety of means. and then prediction is also a very important part of the scientific method. So do your predictions based on your data. Do they, is there a confluence between prediction and past experimentation? And science is great because if under those circumstances, predictions are made, they're reliable predictions. I think yet there are questions, that are conceivable questions, which are as of now, beyond the horizon of experimentation.

RS: Quantum is a good example.

AS: Quantum what is the fundamental structure of space-time is another good one. the experimental models and methods that we have relating to fundamental structures, and theories about physics. Would require you know, for example, a particle accelerator bigger than the universe. So, there's a great, there's a great book called-- or he actually coined this phrase called not even wrong. And it had to do with specific scientific theory. And he said that's not even wrong. And what he meant by that was, in science you can pose a hypothesis and test it and that hypothesis can be right or wrong. There are a class of questions which are not even wrong because they're actually fundamentally untestable. And so there are actually scientific theories, or theories based on math, that are actually untestable, therefore they're not even wrong. But I think the point is, that there are many things that are untestable as of, as of yet. And I think you know, is there anything beyond the reach of this process of asking questions, gathering evidence, predicting potentially, but the future is a long time. And so, things which we thought were untestable in the past, are now testable. because methods have changed. So I wouldn't want to foreclose much of what we might ask in the future. Are there other parallel universes? That's a really difficult question. you know, are there intelligences in the universe that have been heretofore, unobserved, by the fact that they're unobservable. Means that we can't observe them yet, and we don't have the strategies or at least haven't come up with strategies for observing them. You know, is there such a thing as a sort of, a mind which emerges out of many minds, so it was the concept of Gaia, or the neurosphere, those are really interesting questions. Some might say that those are actually untestable, they might be untestable now, you know, but I don't bet against ingenuity in the long run.

RS: 2018... other areas of interest?

AS: I think the character development space, we're launching a program called global innovations in character development, which seeks to gather the best ideas around the world for novel innovations in character development. And what that means is it's very similar to a program on stories of Ubuntu. The focus here is really the best science, the best ideas, rigorously tested, innovations which are proven on a small scale, can they be reproduced on a larger scale. A great example of this is not in character development but also in mental health, a program in Zimbabwe called the friendship bench. And this was an idea that researchers in Zimbabwe had. But said you know, we have all of this medical infrastructure but no one's talking about depression and anxiety. We don't have, we don't have the medicines that you have in the United States and in Europe to treat depression. But what do we have? Well, we actually have, there's lots of social infrastructure. So outside of every clinic in Zimbabwe now, there's a little bench that's painted yellow and on one side of the bench it's somebody who's generally a well-respected elderly woman who's who has been given basic training and some screening criteria, to talk to others who sit on the other side of the bench and come in and if there's a, if she detects that there's some issue with depression and anxiety, she'll ask them to come back. and so it's effectively a form of community-based talking therapy, and that's as effective as medications for, for depression. It's very low-cost, it utilizes social infrastructure as opposed to physical infrastructure. And now I think something like 30,000 people have been treated through this program. So that's an innovation in a relational attribute, that is the sort of innovation that can spread beyond that, and that's the sort of thing we hope to encourage and to unearth as part of this global innovation in character development.

RS: Vision of this new community, how does the foundation cultivate and serve that community?

AS: So, you know, I think about the foundation really in network terms. not in linear terms. What I mean by that, is that-- I view the human capital that is part of the foundation as inclusive of, of grantees, of potential grantees, of our staff members, of advisors that we have. Of key sort of relationships that we're cultivating with, with media outlets. And so forth. So, that's the only way I think we you know, can build a, an institution which endures that is flexible, if we have a kind of semi-permeable boundary between what we're working on and what we think and those who will go onto actually address those issues, pose those questions, generate new information, and generate the impact.

RS: Philanthropy noble work... how do you ensure that sense of joyful dedication?

AS: I think we have to first of all, challenge our own thinking, almost on a daily basis. Because philanthropy and foundation work can become mechanical. It can become about, you know, meeting the next performance review, who is the next deadline, or the trustee's meeting, or the next program committee review meeting. And so, there's a lot of institutional kind of baggage that can get in the way of doing the work actually. And so, the first thing is, try and minimize the amount of bureaucracy, something that Sir John was absolutely dedicated to, was to minimize bureaucracy. You know, he himself had a very small team when he was active as chairman of the foundation and so we try to keep that here, be very small and lean and do things for yourself. as opposed to asking somebody else to do that. So, so minimization internally, and then it's I think you know, realizing humbly that it's others that actually matter in this relationship. It's others who are doing the work. It's others who have the potential to do greater work, and so continuously challenge your own assumptions about what's important on a daily basis, always strive to keep the focus on the endeavor, on the project, on the outcome of the project. And you know, turn you know, everything that's happening internally into an organization that serves that fundamental purpose. Not serving the grantee themselves, not serving the people on the project, but serving the end goal of the project. And, so I think that those, those sort of, the process of examining your own assumptions you know, being focused outwardly as opposed to inwardly, you know, the building of relationships with beneficiaries and with the projects themselves, provide the daily motivation you know. Enables the theoretical promise of philanthropy, which is as I said, to fund and support other people's dreams. It enables that fulfillment of a theoretical promise and translation of that into an actual promise. when you get up every morning you know, of every day.

RS: The spirit of philanthropy when you're telling the human story.

AS: Well, philanthropy literally means the love of humans. So, philanthropy is not an institution, it is a love of people. And I can't think of something better to do with one's time than the service of that goal. 

RS: Your moonshot?

AS: I think we have the capacity to, I'll answer that in a couple of different ways. I think we have the capacity in ten years time to be ten times larger than we are today. Not in terms of people, but in terms of resources that are brought to the subject, you know, the work that we do. The big questions of purpose, meaning, and truth. There's the capacity for an order of magnitude, leap and reach, in resources, in projects, so that's one moon shot, which is that we're taking this whole thing public in a way that is unprecedented. And it's similar to the transformation that I saw in global health. We'll have to be smarter about that, because we don't have as much financial resources, but I think that's certainly possible. That in ten years time, there's an order of magnitude, a quantum transformation in the reach, the impact, the resources commanded not by us but by us and others. Focused on these issues. and then I think you know, there's some really amazing possibilities of breakthroughs that we can actually fund. I think you know, so we can, we can go through a list. I think we can build a device that uses information as fuel, we can find in nature forms of intelligence that we could never dream of. We can build machines which enable our moral skill as opposed to decreasing our mental capacities or ethical capacities or capacities for attention. We can flip that whole thing on its head. you know, we can find yeah. So those are the sorts of things which, we can, we can create time. (LAUGH) That's pretty, that's a moonshot. You know, we can know, so all of these things we will, we will discover the possibility of a habitable planet that we can travel to. So we can identify the specific factors which allow religions to be resources for innovation as opposed to barriers to innovation. You know, and that ultimately faith will be something that is seen as an essential part of human development, as opposed to an antiquated feature of our past.

RS: Meaning, purpose, and truth.

AS: So much in, in our lives as we live them, is distraction. That that rarely do we find the time and the space to have a quiet moment for contemplation. And you know, so I think intentional contemplation is the most limiting resource on the planet, and it will continue to be under assault. So, when I say meaning, purpose, and truth, it's really about how you get to answer those questions. How, how you can approach those. I think ultimately the way in which you can approach those is by leading a life which is intentional, and leaving space in one's day to contemplate those things. So, meaning effectively you know, what do we most value and how do we create that which we most value in our lives. Purpose being, can one divorce itself from an individual perspective, can you find other perspectives. Interestingly, we tend to think that human intelligence peaks at a certain age, that's actually when thinking about the capacity for perspective, our, that actually peaks later in life, and that's probably the basis of wisdom. So, purpose and perspective go together. Can in the sense that the only purpose that I can think of that's tenable in the long run, is a purpose that's devoted to others, or other-directed behavior. Having a perspective that is cognizant of another having a perspective, there's this great theological concept called the I-val relationship. As the most important relationship, that's the same relationship that one can have that is the basis of, at least the Christian understanding of God, that it's a personal relationship that exists, and it exists because that relationship provides purpose in one's life. So, and truth is the last one, and that's related to this sense of ultimate reality. So truth being this sense of ultimate reality, that the world is not as we observe it, there's so many examples in science of counterintuitive knowledge that we gain through experimentation, that reality is just different from the way in which we observe it. And that's what science seeks to provide, that's what faith leads us to appreciate.